3 ms·

DCSS might be a better target, in that it doesn’t reward hanging around on one level, and has far fewer things you need to be spoiled on (you need to know that

by moomin 4y ago

DCSS might be a better target, in that it doesn’t reward hanging around on one level, and has far fewer things you need to be spoiled on (you need to know that picking up runes is good, and how to kill hydras, that’s about it) But it has a steady stream of qualitatively different challenges on different floors, forcing a lot of contextual behaviour. And there’s a little bit of long term strategy that can really mess up an AI.

pmoriarty 4y ago
DCSS is just a much simpler game than Nethack, so a bot would likely do well.
- vintermann 4y ago
  It's questionable if it's simpler (notwithstanding all the things they've cut from dcss over the years). The main obstacle for bots is that to win nethack you need to know lots of things you're unlikely to find out by trial and error. Like how eating a lizard corpse can prevent stoning from a cockatrice's hissing, or hallucination can prevent a Lich's touch of death, how you can apply a towel to wipe your face if you've been blinded by a thrown cream pie etc. Know all the tricks, and the game becomes much easier. You need a lot of knowledge to win DCSS, too, but it's more about wise use of limited resources, playing the hand you're dealt, and the dangers of various locations. It's much harder to codify as spoilers, but you will learn by trial and error.
kibwen 4y ago
DCSS has been beaten by a handcrafted Lua bot, written by the (at the time) indisputably best player in the game. Unlike the approach here, it got to benefit from human expertise, and also it can only win with a very narrow set of characters. Learndb entry: qw: A fully automated lua bot written by elliptic, with some code borrowed from parabolic and xw. The first DCSS bot to ever achieve an uninterrupted and unassisted win (see '!lg qw won 2'). Now maintained at https://github.com/crawl/qw https://github.com/crawl/qw by the DCSS devteam. See qw[2] for a summary of results. As of 0.29-a, qw has a 0.36% winrate with GrBe with 1 win in 276 attempts. See https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/qwqw/morgue-qwqw-20220613-211550.txt https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/qwqw/morgue-qwqw-20220613... and games are sometimes played on cdi. Historically its best 3-rune winrate was 15% DDFi^Makhleb, and, for 15 runes, about 1% with GrFi^TSO before the 0.28 hell rework. Branch order: D -> Lair:8 -> Orc:3 -> D:15 -> S:5 -> Vaults:4 -> Depths:5 -> S:5 -> Vaults:5 -> Zot On the online servers, qw plays with an extra added delay so that it doesn't use too much server CPU. Playing locally without this delay, qw is much faster.

by moomin 4y ago

pmoriarty 4y ago

DCSS is just a much simpler game than Nethack, so a bot would likely do well.

vintermann 4y ago
It's questionable if it's simpler (notwithstanding all the things they've cut from dcss over the years). The main obstacle for bots is that to win nethack you need to know lots of things you're unlikely to find out by trial and error. Like how eating a lizard corpse can prevent stoning from a cockatrice's hissing, or hallucination can prevent a Lich's touch of death, how you can apply a towel to wipe your face if you've been blinded by a thrown cream pie etc. Know all the tricks, and the game becomes much easier. You need a lot of knowledge to win DCSS, too, but it's more about wise use of limited resources, playing the hand you're dealt, and the dangers of various locations. It's much harder to codify as spoilers, but you will learn by trial and error.

kibwen 4y ago

DCSS has been beaten by a handcrafted Lua bot, written by the (at the time) indisputably best player in the game. Unlike the approach here, it got to benefit from human expertise, and also it can only win with a very narrow set of characters. Learndb entry: qw: A fully automated lua bot written by elliptic, with some code borrowed from parabolic and xw. The first DCSS bot to ever achieve an uninterrupted and unassisted win (see '!lg qw won 2'). Now maintained at https://github.com/crawl/qw https://github.com/crawl/qw by the DCSS devteam. See qw[2] for a summary of results. As of 0.29-a, qw has a 0.36% winrate with GrBe with 1 win in 276 attempts. See https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/qwqw/morgue-qwqw-20220613-211550.txt https://crawl.dcss.io/crawl/morgue/qwqw/morgue-qwqw-20220613... and games are sometimes played on cdi. Historically its best 3-rune winrate was 15% DDFi^Makhleb, and, for 15 runes, about 1% with GrFi^TSO before the 0.28 hell rework. Branch order: D -> Lair:8 -> Orc:3 -> D:15 -> S:5 -> Vaults:4 -> Depths:5 -> S:5 -> Vaults:5 -> Zot On the online servers, qw plays with an extra added delay so that it doesn't use too much server CPU. Playing locally without this delay, qw is much faster.