4 ms·

Why does the EU need to form a realistic opposition to the U.S.?

mcv 4y ago
The EU has been far too dependent on the US. Just after WW2, and arguably during the Cold War, this was unavoidable, but things have changed. The EU is a lot stronger now, whereas the US is becoming less reliable as an ally; 20 years ago, they suckered the world into two long, harmful wars, there's been a movement towards extreme nationalism, away from international cooperation, and even away from democracy in recent years. On top of that, there are a lot of principles on civil and human rights that are core the EU that the US doesn't subscribe too; they're still not member of the ICC, they rarely prosecute their own war criminals, use torture, extralegal assassination, and have a tendency to strong-arm other nations, including European allies, into doing what the US security apparatus wants. Make no mistake, when tensions with totalitarian dictatorships like China or Russia rise, the EU will always jump into bed with the US, because the flawed humanitarian values of the US are still better than none at all, and we're still allies. But the US is not the beacon of human rights and democracy that it once was, or was presented as. The EU should be more independent and champion this values independently from the US. And that should include criticism when the US fails to live up to those values.
WJW 4y ago
Because we don't like a foreign power influencing our policy to their own benefit and our detriment?
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  Given that the EU has been happy to use America's defense guarantee to subsidize their own defense for a few decades that doesn't exactly ring true. That said, I do understand the need for EU strategic autonomy, especially since the U.S. has been pushing for it since at least the Obama administration but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China. One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the other often at least tries to be mutually beneficial.
  - waffleiron 4y ago
    >One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the other often at least tries to be mutually beneficial. A Chinese citizen would say the exact same thing, countries switched out. Both countries do whatever is in their own best interest, it's naive to pretend otherwise. Now what's in the U.S. best interest might have historically been more aligned with the EU, but that doesn't mean it stays that way.
    - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
      Sure they would, and one country is actively committing genocide and one isn't. I'd say objectively there are differences in the actions a nation takes in its own interest. If there really were no constraints on actions a nation would take this would be a much darker world and I think the U.S. would have taken much more coercive actions against the EU in preferential trade policy and beyond long ago.
  - modo_mario 4y ago
    Subsidise their own defence? Defence from what? The only time NATO called the arms was when the US invoked article 5. Additionally this article is from 2007. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimeline https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimel... We are as of today still helping out in Iraq. >but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China When SWIFT was transacting with Iran after our negotiations you forced our hand to fit your own geopolitics. You force decisions about nato procurement to favour you (At times Germany has done so too tbh) and your industry then whine we don't spend enough. Whenever it comes down to it your allies end up being pushed to act like vassals instead (see Japan being forced to do technology transfers to the US, to import US goods, set monetary policy favouring the US,etc in the 70's/ 80's all to essentially bail it out) Then there's various examples of government sponsored corporate espionage. Then there's things like our refugee wave resulting political turmoil stemming from our dealings in the middle east and the arab spring after north african countries and co tried in vain to protect their pegs against the dollar. All in all I do think there's countless opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation and alignment between the US and EU but hell don't act like the US is some saint who never acts in it's own interest. At least with China nobody pretends. Ps. I think the US rethoric regarding china is laden with hypocrisy. That's not to say China is not authoritarian, etc
DocTomoe 4y ago
Because we have learned the US to be an unreliable partner and a source for most of our problems, several times now. It's time to stand on our own feet.
- Jcowell 4y ago
  Can I get a source on this? From my shallow understanding of history. Europe is the source of Europe’s problems.
  - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
    Most does sound like quite a stretch but to be fair the U.S. has certainly caused some regional issues (e.g. slowing growth by cutting off trade with Iran, electronic surveillance in Europe on allies, pushing EU countries to buy American arms instead of developing domestic industries, pushing for large beneficial trade deals like nuclear plants that benefit American companies). But yes, most does not seem fair either to the U.S. or to Europe which does have some agency.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      Don't forget about the countless wars of aggression the US has waged virtually everywhere on the globe in the last 80 years, or the constant 'regime changing' in unstable countries, most of them leading to an endless stream of refugees that end up on European shores. Right about now, the US was a major factor in Euromaidan, in an attempt to weaken both Russia and the EU (say hello to Mrs. Nuland, will ya?), which directly paved the way to today's Ukraino-Russian war.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  The US subsidizing defense spending has allowed the EU to vastly expand social welfare spending on healthcare and education. Those $100B in arms Germany is about to purchase will be that much less spending on social programs.
  - 4y ago

mcv 4y ago

The EU has been far too dependent on the US. Just after WW2, and arguably during the Cold War, this was unavoidable, but things have changed. The EU is a lot stronger now, whereas the US is becoming less reliable as an ally; 20 years ago, they suckered the world into two long, harmful wars, there's been a movement towards extreme nationalism, away from international cooperation, and even away from democracy in recent years. On top of that, there are a lot of principles on civil and human rights that are core the EU that the US doesn't subscribe too; they're still not member of the ICC, they rarely prosecute their own war criminals, use torture, extralegal assassination, and have a tendency to strong-arm other nations, including European allies, into doing what the US security apparatus wants. Make no mistake, when tensions with totalitarian dictatorships like China or Russia rise, the EU will always jump into bed with the US, because the flawed humanitarian values of the US are still better than none at all, and we're still allies. But the US is not the beacon of human rights and democracy that it once was, or was presented as. The EU should be more independent and champion this values independently from the US. And that should include criticism when the US fails to live up to those values.

WJW 4y ago

Because we don't like a foreign power influencing our policy to their own benefit and our detriment?

atlasunshrugged 4y ago
Given that the EU has been happy to use America's defense guarantee to subsidize their own defense for a few decades that doesn't exactly ring true. That said, I do understand the need for EU strategic autonomy, especially since the U.S. has been pushing for it since at least the Obama administration but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China. One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the other often at least tries to be mutually beneficial.
- waffleiron 4y ago
  >One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the other often at least tries to be mutually beneficial. A Chinese citizen would say the exact same thing, countries switched out. Both countries do whatever is in their own best interest, it's naive to pretend otherwise. Now what's in the U.S. best interest might have historically been more aligned with the EU, but that doesn't mean it stays that way.
  - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
    Sure they would, and one country is actively committing genocide and one isn't. I'd say objectively there are differences in the actions a nation takes in its own interest. If there really were no constraints on actions a nation would take this would be a much darker world and I think the U.S. would have taken much more coercive actions against the EU in preferential trade policy and beyond long ago.
- modo_mario 4y ago
  Subsidise their own defence? Defence from what? The only time NATO called the arms was when the US invoked article 5. Additionally this article is from 2007. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimeline https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/sep/16/iraq.iraqtimel... We are as of today still helping out in Iraq. >but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China When SWIFT was transacting with Iran after our negotiations you forced our hand to fit your own geopolitics. You force decisions about nato procurement to favour you (At times Germany has done so too tbh) and your industry then whine we don't spend enough. Whenever it comes down to it your allies end up being pushed to act like vassals instead (see Japan being forced to do technology transfers to the US, to import US goods, set monetary policy favouring the US,etc in the 70's/ 80's all to essentially bail it out) Then there's various examples of government sponsored corporate espionage. Then there's things like our refugee wave resulting political turmoil stemming from our dealings in the middle east and the arab spring after north african countries and co tried in vain to protect their pegs against the dollar. All in all I do think there's countless opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation and alignment between the US and EU but hell don't act like the US is some saint who never acts in it's own interest. At least with China nobody pretends. Ps. I think the US rethoric regarding china is laden with hypocrisy. That's not to say China is not authoritarian, etc

DocTomoe 4y ago

Because we have learned the US to be an unreliable partner and a source for most of our problems, several times now. It's time to stand on our own feet.

Jcowell 4y ago
Can I get a source on this? From my shallow understanding of history. Europe is the source of Europe’s problems.
- atlasunshrugged 4y ago
  Most does sound like quite a stretch but to be fair the U.S. has certainly caused some regional issues (e.g. slowing growth by cutting off trade with Iran, electronic surveillance in Europe on allies, pushing EU countries to buy American arms instead of developing domestic industries, pushing for large beneficial trade deals like nuclear plants that benefit American companies). But yes, most does not seem fair either to the U.S. or to Europe which does have some agency.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    Don't forget about the countless wars of aggression the US has waged virtually everywhere on the globe in the last 80 years, or the constant 'regime changing' in unstable countries, most of them leading to an endless stream of refugees that end up on European shores. Right about now, the US was a major factor in Euromaidan, in an attempt to weaken both Russia and the EU (say hello to Mrs. Nuland, will ya?), which directly paved the way to today's Ukraino-Russian war.
mensetmanusman 4y ago
The US subsidizing defense spending has allowed the EU to vastly expand social welfare spending on healthcare and education. Those $100B in arms Germany is about to purchase will be that much less spending on social programs.
- 4y ago