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I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with the

I always admired Brits for allowing people from Scotland (and maybe other parts) to actually vote and decide if they wanted to stay in the same country with them. If people all over the world had the same right, I suppose a lot of the wars could be avoided. Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Selectively applying right to independence is maybe the single worst problem in the whole world, whose solution could lead to immediate benefits to everyone. And before someone claims otherwise, I would even go as far as the community level. If a city in Scotland vote to stay in Britain, I would allow them to become independent of Scotland and stay. In the same ways as I would allow a city in Donetsk to stay in Ukraine if they want so. Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never.

walkhour 4y ago
These kinds of votes would happen more often if the independent country committed to running referendums asking whether they should join the original country after they became independent. Many countries fear a referendum every twenty years with a 30% chance of resulting in independence, with these conditions, it's just a matter of time until the region becomes independent, and referendums, of course, stop happening.
mschuster91 4y ago
> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. > Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never. Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election. In contrast, there has been no campaign in Catalonia or in Scotland to forcibly remove ethnic Spaniards/English people in order to stage a fraudulent vote.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  > Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election. Without commenting your claims of supposed ethnic cleansing, I'd like to point out that such a referendum could've potentially been held before or after the Maidan coup in 2014. But since Ukraine regime decided to crush independence movement using their armed forces, people of Donbas had no other choice but to fight back and got help from whoever was willing to help them. Otherwise, this territory would be ethnically cleansed. > In contrast, there has been no campaign in Catalonia or in Scotland to forcibly remove ethnic Spaniards/English people in order to stage a fraudulent vote. I wish Spanish government reacted similar to British in case of Catalonia. Instead of helping to properly organize the referendum, they opted for using armed forces and criminalizing and arresting pro-independence supporters.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > I wish Spanish government reacted similar to British in case of Catalonia. Instead of helping to properly organize the referendum, they opted for using armed forces and criminalizing and arresting pro-independence supporters. On that we agree. Spain knows they don't stand a chance in a fair and free separation referendum, which is why they went down the dirty route.
ciphol 4y ago
I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1]. BTW it's interesting you use the the Russian pronunciation "Lugansk" rather than the standard "Luhansk", it hints pretty strongly where your loyalties lie. [1] https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-held-areas-of-donbas-prefer-reintegration-with-ukraine-new-survey/ https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-hel...
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  > I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1]. I would still trust an actual referendum held in 2014 than some random net article. Unfortunately, now it's too late for that, we have a bloody war and need to find a way out. And that was my whole point, referendums are good, and the British government is doing the right thing to allow them. I write Lugansk since it was written like that when I learned it. Luhansk is a relatively recent transcription change. It's still written as Lugansk in most of the German and Polish media. French, Croatian, and Spanish name could also be the same. Even in original Ukrainian, it is written as Луганськ, "г" being a Cyrillic "g" and not "h". As someone who can read Cyrillic, but neither Russian nor Ukrainian, I just tend to transcribe Cyrillic letters as is, instead to guess the right pronunciation.
gnomewascool 4y ago
> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Apologies to everybody for continuing this huge tangent, but this is bizarre. The Ukrainian army did not try to force Donetsk and Luhansk into Ukraine. First, a linguistic quibble: they had been part of Ukraine from the moment of its independence (and in the independence referendum 80+% of the voters in the two regions had voted for independence), so they couldn't be forced "into" Ukraine. Second, the conflict began when Russian and Russian-backed forces started an armed insurrection, so it's more the case that Russia tried to force them out of Ukraine, against their will. I'm highly confident that if a free referendum had been held there in 2014, a majority of the population of the Donbas would have voted to stay in Ukraine. Obviously, we'll now never find out, due to Russia carrying out ethnic cleansing of the region (mass deportations and killings). > I would even go as far as the community level. If a city in Scotland vote to stay in Britain, I would allow them to become independent of Scotland and stay. In the same ways as I would allow a city in Donetsk to stay in Ukraine if they want so. This is a very interesting question, but it'd be very complicated to get right, since the support for independence of particular regions can be entangled. For instance, people in Aberdeen might support Scottish independence iff Edinburgh stays in Scotland; people in Edinburgh might support independence iff the border territories stay in Scotland etc. That is not to say that we shouldn't try, if possible.

walkhour 4y ago

These kinds of votes would happen more often if the independent country committed to running referendums asking whether they should join the original country after they became independent. Many countries fear a referendum every twenty years with a 30% chance of resulting in independence, with these conditions, it's just a matter of time until the region becomes independent, and referendums, of course, stop happening.

mschuster91 4y ago

> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. > Freedom of association is the basic human right, and no majorisation should be allowed to happen. Never. Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election. In contrast, there has been no campaign in Catalonia or in Scotland to forcibly remove ethnic Spaniards/English people in order to stage a fraudulent vote.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
> Russia has cleansed the occupied territories of ethnic Ukrainians pretty well over the last years since they took them over. Any form of "referendum" to associate with Russia is nothing more than a plain land grab, a sham election. Without commenting your claims of supposed ethnic cleansing, I'd like to point out that such a referendum could've potentially been held before or after the Maidan coup in 2014. But since Ukraine regime decided to crush independence movement using their armed forces, people of Donbas had no other choice but to fight back and got help from whoever was willing to help them. Otherwise, this territory would be ethnically cleansed. > In contrast, there has been no campaign in Catalonia or in Scotland to forcibly remove ethnic Spaniards/English people in order to stage a fraudulent vote. I wish Spanish government reacted similar to British in case of Catalonia. Instead of helping to properly organize the referendum, they opted for using armed forces and criminalizing and arresting pro-independence supporters.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > I wish Spanish government reacted similar to British in case of Catalonia. Instead of helping to properly organize the referendum, they opted for using armed forces and criminalizing and arresting pro-independence supporters. On that we agree. Spain knows they don't stand a chance in a fair and free separation referendum, which is why they went down the dirty route.

ciphol 4y ago

I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1]. BTW it's interesting you use the the Russian pronunciation "Lugansk" rather than the standard "Luhansk", it hints pretty strongly where your loyalties lie. [1] https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-held-areas-of-donbas-prefer-reintegration-with-ukraine-new-survey/ https://blog.politics.ox.ac.uk/most-people-in-separatist-hel...

tut-urut-utut 4y ago
> I think the issue in Donetsk/Luhansk is actually the Russian army forcing them into Russia, against the wishes of most of the inhabitants [1]. I would still trust an actual referendum held in 2014 than some random net article. Unfortunately, now it's too late for that, we have a bloody war and need to find a way out. And that was my whole point, referendums are good, and the British government is doing the right thing to allow them. I write Lugansk since it was written like that when I learned it. Luhansk is a relatively recent transcription change. It's still written as Lugansk in most of the German and Polish media. French, Croatian, and Spanish name could also be the same. Even in original Ukrainian, it is written as Луганськ, "г" being a Cyrillic "g" and not "h". As someone who can read Cyrillic, but neither Russian nor Ukrainian, I just tend to transcribe Cyrillic letters as is, instead to guess the right pronunciation.

gnomewascool 4y ago

> Just imagine Ukraine allowing people in Donetsk and Lugansk to actually decide their status themselves, instead of using an army to force them into Ukraine. Apologies to everybody for continuing this huge tangent, but this is bizarre. The Ukrainian army did not try to force Donetsk and Luhansk into Ukraine. First, a linguistic quibble: they had been part of Ukraine from the moment of its independence (and in the independence referendum 80+% of the voters in the two regions had voted for independence), so they couldn't be forced "into" Ukraine. Second, the conflict began when Russian and Russian-backed forces started an armed insurrection, so it's more the case that Russia tried to force them out of Ukraine, against their will. I'm highly confident that if a free referendum had been held there in 2014, a majority of the population of the Donbas would have voted to stay in Ukraine. Obviously, we'll now never find out, due to Russia carrying out ethnic cleansing of the region (mass deportations and killings). > I would even go as far as the community level. If a city in Scotland vote to stay in Britain, I would allow them to become independent of Scotland and stay. In the same ways as I would allow a city in Donetsk to stay in Ukraine if they want so. This is a very interesting question, but it'd be very complicated to get right, since the support for independence of particular regions can be entangled. For instance, people in Aberdeen might support Scottish independence iff Edinburgh stays in Scotland; people in Edinburgh might support independence iff the border territories stay in Scotland etc. That is not to say that we shouldn't try, if possible.