3 ms·

Which is going to get introduced because nations like Hungary, led by oil oligarchs connected to Russia, want to fk over whole EU for their personal gain. You

by pojzon 4y ago

Which is going to get introduced because nations like Hungary, led by oil oligarchs connected to Russia, want to fk over whole EU for their personal gain. You should work towards stronger union not weaken it.

inglor_cz 4y ago
I am a Czech citizen and a mild Euroskeptic. I definitely do not want the EU to become stronger than it already is. We have had enough experience where obsession with "more power" leads, and I do not want to see this scenario replayed again in slightly different conditions. What I value about current EU is precisely that it cannot just squash dissent by force, even from a single country.
- zwirbl 4y ago
  > What I value about current EU is precisely that it cannot just squash dissent by force, even from a single country. And this often means that the EU can't get anything done on an EU wide level
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    That is, for me, a feature, not a bug. Consent is a great thing. Many people of smaller nations like Czechs, that regained sovereignty after a long period of subjugation to various powers, do not really want to give it up again so that the French-German axis may have their job easier.
    - zwirbl 4y ago
      Why did they join the EU in the first place then? Was it for the money and having some entity to blame for domestic policy failures? The last point is what politicians here in Austria like to do
      - MagnumOpus 4y ago
        For the money, and to get rid of their Roma travelers (because those now legally migrate to west.)
      - inglor_cz 4y ago
        We entered a EU that had veto powers for each member and I, personally, would like to stay it that way. The fact that you once joined an organization does not mean that you must agree with any subsequent development.
tut-urut-utut 4y ago
I am not a Hungarian citizen, but I am grateful that Hungary often has enough courage to call nonsense a nonsense and use or threaten with their veto to bring a bit of sanity in the EU. Heck, I can say that Hungary voted more frequently in my interest than my government. The EU is frequently used to push some regulations in favour of big corps that would never pass in any of the national parliaments without a big fight. That's why I'm glad that at least someone sometimes can stop this.
- pojzon 4y ago
  Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around. Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen.
  - tut-urut-utut 4y ago
    > Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Hungary and Poland were the only countries opposing the unlimited migration. Hungary is the only country that pushes back on sanctions that harms us in Germany more than them in Russia. Austria and Netherlands were opposing a huge debt package to fight corona. > Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. Maybe state governments are in the agreements, but not the majority of population. In Germany, some topics were truly polarizing, governments frequently voted for topics that had domestic majority against it, and Hungary and Poland voted for what represents the will of German population majority. On the other hand, in capitalistic economic theory, the only way to get a sane system is if everyone acts only in its own self-interest. Asking humans to do something for "common or higher good" usually leads to one party exploiting the other. > When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around. I doubt that in Europe, we ever had that strong consensus between European citizens. It's usually that governments have strong consensus that is not always reflected in the population. Instead of ditching veto right, I would rather go the other direction, to the more Swiss style direct democracy, where power would be brought back to people, and away from the governments. If citizen could decide on important topics, we would not need veto at all. > Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen. As a German citizen, I wish you more power to your citizens, as opposed to EU or polish goverment, even when we have different preferences.

by pojzon 4y ago

inglor_cz 4y ago

I am a Czech citizen and a mild Euroskeptic. I definitely do not want the EU to become stronger than it already is. We have had enough experience where obsession with "more power" leads, and I do not want to see this scenario replayed again in slightly different conditions. What I value about current EU is precisely that it cannot just squash dissent by force, even from a single country.

zwirbl 4y ago
> What I value about current EU is precisely that it cannot just squash dissent by force, even from a single country. And this often means that the EU can't get anything done on an EU wide level
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  That is, for me, a feature, not a bug. Consent is a great thing. Many people of smaller nations like Czechs, that regained sovereignty after a long period of subjugation to various powers, do not really want to give it up again so that the French-German axis may have their job easier.
  - zwirbl 4y ago
    Why did they join the EU in the first place then? Was it for the money and having some entity to blame for domestic policy failures? The last point is what politicians here in Austria like to do
    - MagnumOpus 4y ago
      For the money, and to get rid of their Roma travelers (because those now legally migrate to west.)
    - inglor_cz 4y ago
      We entered a EU that had veto powers for each member and I, personally, would like to stay it that way. The fact that you once joined an organization does not mean that you must agree with any subsequent development.

tut-urut-utut 4y ago

I am not a Hungarian citizen, but I am grateful that Hungary often has enough courage to call nonsense a nonsense and use or threaten with their veto to bring a bit of sanity in the EU. Heck, I can say that Hungary voted more frequently in my interest than my government. The EU is frequently used to push some regulations in favour of big corps that would never pass in any of the national parliaments without a big fight. That's why I'm glad that at least someone sometimes can stop this.

pojzon 4y ago
Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around. Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen.
- tut-urut-utut 4y ago
  > Can you give any example of Hungary and Poland vetoing in good faith ? Hungary and Poland were the only countries opposing the unlimited migration. Hungary is the only country that pushes back on sanctions that harms us in Germany more than them in Russia. Austria and Netherlands were opposing a huge debt package to fight corona. > Lately it seems they only cover own ass, while all other states are in agreement. Maybe state governments are in the agreements, but not the majority of population. In Germany, some topics were truly polarizing, governments frequently voted for topics that had domestic majority against it, and Hungary and Poland voted for what represents the will of German population majority. On the other hand, in capitalistic economic theory, the only way to get a sane system is if everyone acts only in its own self-interest. Asking humans to do something for "common or higher good" usually leads to one party exploiting the other. > When only you see a problem its often the case you are the problem not the other way around. I doubt that in Europe, we ever had that strong consensus between European citizens. It's usually that governments have strong consensus that is not always reflected in the population. Instead of ditching veto right, I would rather go the other direction, to the more Swiss style direct democracy, where power would be brought back to people, and away from the governments. If citizen could decide on important topics, we would not need veto at all. > Ps. I say that as a Polish citizen. As a German citizen, I wish you more power to your citizens, as opposed to EU or polish goverment, even when we have different preferences.