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And that, as they say, is why we vote the Prime Minister and parliament for life, instead of having repeated elections every 5 years.

brigandish 4y ago
If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.
- cyberpunk 4y ago
  I voted against it as I didn't want to lose my EU membership; which we were told would happen. A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. A lot of my friends who were remain for various reasons seem to be leaning towards independence. 'We were told it was a one time vote' isn't a good enough reason to stay pegged to this ship. The worst outcome for scotland already happened, we lost our EU citizenship, so what's the use of carrying along with the UK? That being said, I would hope that the SNP aren't running things after independence.
  - smcl 4y ago
    I think we'd continue with a proportional-representation system, so as-it-stands they'd sort of be running things but they'd need a coalition partner like they have in the Scottish Greens.
  - brigandish 4y ago
    > A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. You want a referendum because other people you disagree with were given a referendum that you then lost? And you paint this as "tory government takes it from us"? I also note that millions voted, it'd be hard for them all to be middle Englanders. I just wonder why you need to paint it so far from reality and in a way that only suits you?
    - cyberpunk 4y ago
      It's not quite as straightforward as that. Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain. Scotland also is not represented by the Tory government in Westminster. These are constitutional issues, and the people should be given the choice if they want this to continue or not. I don't think being asked to chose is undemocratic, it's /exactly/ democracy. Let the people decide.
      - brigandish 4y ago
        > Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain. Scotland also is not represented by the Tory government in Westminster. Scotland did not get a vote, and there are Scottish Tories, and there are members of parliament from all the regions of Scotland. Scottish people are represented better than English people in all respects. > These are constitutional issues, and the people should be given the choice if they want this to continue or not. I agree, I voted in the last referendum and I will vote in the next. I disagree with the behaviour of the nationalists so I will vote against them. > I don't think being asked to chose is undemocratic, it's /exactly/ democracy. Let the people decide. Do you think that politicians making blatant lies to the public is democratic? I'm not asking if it happens or is likely or an unfortunate aspect of politics, I'm asking if you think it should be part of the way things are actually done and if the voters should overlook it - is it democratic?
    - dijit 4y ago
      secession from a union that is not representing your interests is valid. this was the case for brexit, why is it different for scotland?
      - brigandish 4y ago
        I wrote that I voted for independence right at the top of the thread, did you miss that?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Reasons for wanting a referendum are none of your business. It suffices to say they want one. If it fails, then not enough wanted to leave. That is all. When they failed to do Brexit for years running, and it turned out the arguments for were lies, there should have been another Brexit vote. It would have failed, and a great deal of trouble would be saved.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  > If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. Yes, absolutely. Once Scotland is independent we absolutely should keep checking to see if everyone thinks it's a good idea. If the majority votes to rejoin the rest of the UK politically, we should do that.
  - themoose8 4y ago
    It's not a revolving door decision. You can't vote-force your way into joining a separate country or political institution, e.g. Ukraine can't simply gain a majority vote to be part of the EU and it happens. This is why it's seen as a once-in-a-generation vote. The impacts are so huge, revolutionary and so long-term, that it's not a conversation you want to have every 4-5 years until one year you chance your way to the preferred result.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      But we should still check that things are going the way people expect them to, right? Of course the point is moot - can you point to any former part of the English Empire that has ever expressed a desire to get back to being ruled by them?
- AshamedCaptain 4y ago
  Multiple european countries have referendums multiple times per year, on topics whose effects are much harder to undo (like education plans).
  - brigandish 4y ago
    I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence. But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe?
    - AshamedCaptain 4y ago
      > I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence. Perhaps not (your choice), but education plans definitely influence _at least_ a generation -- and they are changed almost on every change of legislative color without either a public vote or otherwise much fanfare. This stuff eventually has a much more profound impact than independence (for starters, education plans can and do influence which % of the population is in favor of such independence; but they can also influence how much the culture diverges between the two "countries", e.g. by promoting regional languages). And this is just an example. Additional devolutions also have an impact that is at least on the same level, and again usually passes without much fanfare either. > But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe? We had at least 2-3 last decade? And this entire thread is about another one...
      - brigandish 4y ago
        > We had at least 2-3 last decade? Which countries? I note 4 if Ukraine is part of Europe, but that would mean you have to recognise Crimea's referendum as legal and valid. Not a hill I'd die on. Catalunya's and Venice's were not recognised by Spain or Italy, so we're left with Scotland's. Unless there were others?
        AshamedCaptain 4y ago

brigandish 4y ago

If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. It's just the same.

cyberpunk 4y ago
I voted against it as I didn't want to lose my EU membership; which we were told would happen. A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. A lot of my friends who were remain for various reasons seem to be leaning towards independence. 'We were told it was a one time vote' isn't a good enough reason to stay pegged to this ship. The worst outcome for scotland already happened, we lost our EU citizenship, so what's the use of carrying along with the UK? That being said, I would hope that the SNP aren't running things after independence.
- smcl 4y ago
  I think we'd continue with a proportional-representation system, so as-it-stands they'd sort of be running things but they'd need a coalition partner like they have in the Scottish Greens.
- brigandish 4y ago
  > A few years later, an unrepresentative (to scotland) tory government takes it from us anyway because they were frightened of nigel farage and some middle englanders don't like hearing polish in their local tescos. You want a referendum because other people you disagree with were given a referendum that you then lost? And you paint this as "tory government takes it from us"? I also note that millions voted, it'd be hard for them all to be middle Englanders. I just wonder why you need to paint it so far from reality and in a way that only suits you?
  - cyberpunk 4y ago
    It's not quite as straightforward as that. Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain. Scotland also is not represented by the Tory government in Westminster. These are constitutional issues, and the people should be given the choice if they want this to continue or not. I don't think being asked to chose is undemocratic, it's /exactly/ democracy. Let the people decide.
    - brigandish 4y ago
      > Scotland overwhelmingly voted remain. Scotland also is not represented by the Tory government in Westminster. Scotland did not get a vote, and there are Scottish Tories, and there are members of parliament from all the regions of Scotland. Scottish people are represented better than English people in all respects. > These are constitutional issues, and the people should be given the choice if they want this to continue or not. I agree, I voted in the last referendum and I will vote in the next. I disagree with the behaviour of the nationalists so I will vote against them. > I don't think being asked to chose is undemocratic, it's /exactly/ democracy. Let the people decide. Do you think that politicians making blatant lies to the public is democratic? I'm not asking if it happens or is likely or an unfortunate aspect of politics, I'm asking if you think it should be part of the way things are actually done and if the voters should overlook it - is it democratic?
  - dijit 4y ago
    secession from a union that is not representing your interests is valid. this was the case for brexit, why is it different for scotland?
    - brigandish 4y ago
      I wrote that I voted for independence right at the top of the thread, did you miss that?
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Reasons for wanting a referendum are none of your business. It suffices to say they want one. If it fails, then not enough wanted to leave. That is all. When they failed to do Brexit for years running, and it turned out the arguments for were lies, there should have been another Brexit vote. It would have failed, and a great deal of trouble would be saved.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> If you think having referenda is comparable, then let's have them every 5 years too, on both Scottish independence or rejoining the the Union, and on Brexit or rejoining the EU. Yes, absolutely. Once Scotland is independent we absolutely should keep checking to see if everyone thinks it's a good idea. If the majority votes to rejoin the rest of the UK politically, we should do that.
- themoose8 4y ago
  It's not a revolving door decision. You can't vote-force your way into joining a separate country or political institution, e.g. Ukraine can't simply gain a majority vote to be part of the EU and it happens. This is why it's seen as a once-in-a-generation vote. The impacts are so huge, revolutionary and so long-term, that it's not a conversation you want to have every 4-5 years until one year you chance your way to the preferred result.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    But we should still check that things are going the way people expect them to, right? Of course the point is moot - can you point to any former part of the English Empire that has ever expressed a desire to get back to being ruled by them?
AshamedCaptain 4y ago
Multiple european countries have referendums multiple times per year, on topics whose effects are much harder to undo (like education plans).
- brigandish 4y ago
  I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence. But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe?
  - AshamedCaptain 4y ago
    > I can't say that many, including myself, would agree that education plans are on the same level as independence. Perhaps not (your choice), but education plans definitely influence _at least_ a generation -- and they are changed almost on every change of legislative color without either a public vote or otherwise much fanfare. This stuff eventually has a much more profound impact than independence (for starters, education plans can and do influence which % of the population is in favor of such independence; but they can also influence how much the culture diverges between the two "countries", e.g. by promoting regional languages). And this is just an example. Additional devolutions also have an impact that is at least on the same level, and again usually passes without much fanfare either. > But maybe I'm wrong. How often are independence referenda held in Europe? We had at least 2-3 last decade? And this entire thread is about another one...
    - brigandish 4y ago
      > We had at least 2-3 last decade? Which countries? I note 4 if Ukraine is part of Europe, but that would mean you have to recognise Crimea's referendum as legal and valid. Not a hill I'd die on. Catalunya's and Venice's were not recognised by Spain or Italy, so we're left with Scotland's. Unless there were others?
      - AshamedCaptain 4y ago