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What does this have to do with the US, and US unions, or any unions in free, democratic countries? > one of the rigged votes that socialists are so famous for

What does this have to do with the US, and US unions, or any unions in free, democratic countries? > one of the rigged votes that socialists are so famous for What socialists are famous for rigged votes? The Soviet Union was famous, but they weren't socialist. Is Sweden famous for rigged votes?

drewcoo 4y ago
> The Soviet Union was famous, but they weren't socialist. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics wasn't socialist? Just famous? What?
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a direct democracy. It comes directly from the absolutist ruler.
- claytongulick 4y ago
  They were no true Scottsman. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  They were as socialist as they were democratic - which is to say, in name only.
- donw 4y ago
  You have to understand the theory behind the religion of Socialism/Communism/Democracy/Whatever The Current Re-Brand Is. A Socialist society is one in which True Equity has been achieved. The State sort of just fades out of existence, as it is no longer needed to ensure cooperation. This has never happened, because it will never happen, ergo cue the cries of "True Communism has never been tried!" The fact that every attempt has made the Nazis look like a troop of Jainist Girl Scouts is immaterial. Slaughtering a hundred million people while redefining the depths of human misery is fine and dandy, as long the goals are noble. Can't make that omelette without breaking a few eggs.
  - wolverine876 4y ago
    > The fact that every attempt has made the Nazis look like a troop of Jainist Girl Scouts This is just Nazi revisionism. The Soviets were horrible, so were the Nazis. > Slaughtering a hundred million people while redefining the depths of human misery is fine and dandy, as long the goals are noble. Can't make that omelette without breaking a few eggs. Same goes for the fascists, all over the world. The problem is extremists (and their great empowerers, Western apologists).
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    One could easily point out that murdering people isn’t a function of socialism (eg Where all the dead Swedes?), but rather authoritarianism. Authoritarians — regardless of their purported economic philosophy — always leave the streets red.
    - native_samples 4y ago
      But actual attempts at socialism always require authoritarianism which is why it's never worth distinguishing them. Sweden isn't actually socialist, that's some US idea that would get you laughed at in Europe itself. Sweden is a capitalist democracy like any other. Relatively minor differences in tax rates does not a socialist country make!
      - wolverine876 4y ago
        Sweden is social democratic.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
cuteboy19 4y ago
Sweden is not socialist. Better example might have been socialist pre 1990s India
impossiblefork 4y ago
Socialism means worker ownership of all means of production. The Soviet union was quasi-socialist. It had elements of social ownership of means of production, but wasn't democratic, so means of production weren't actually in the hands of workers. Sweden was social democratic. This is not socialism, although it's sort of supposed to be: However, Sweden's social democracy failed to achieve any kind of true worker influence, in fact, it created the illusion of social equality when in fact Sweden has extreme capital concentration (Sweden is one among four countries with wealth GINI above 85-- the club is Russia, the US, Sweden and the Netherlands). Essentially the Swedish economy is controlled by a very small number of multi-billionaires. What you see in Sweden is instead redistribution from ordinary workers to slightly poorer ordinary workers and to the unemployed, so the high taxes are not actually a progressive or pro-worker policy, but a regressive policy where resources taken from successful workers are used to reduce the dissatisfaction of the poorest with the economic system. This could perhaps be acceptable if it led to high wages but this has not been the result-- with economic power comes political power, and in my assessment the the desire by the capital-owning class to keep Swedish exports competitive have led to use of low central bank interests rates, intended to reduce the value of wages, as well as a surprising political support for immigration which has existed in the political parties which has no mirror in the views of ordinary people. It has been so successful that it's not unusual to see programmers working on quite hard stuff get paid 45 000-50 000 USD per annum before taxes. At present the wage share of GDP in Sweden extraordinary low, 55%, to be compared to 59% in the US-- so Swedish workers are actually more exploited than US workers.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  All very interesting claims, but can you back them up? Sweden achieves great outcomes for its population, and the people there seem happy with it. They are all deceived and you know their business better than they do?
  - impossiblefork 4y ago
    What claims did you have in mind, and what great outcomes? The wealth GINI data can be found here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_in...). What the page is based on is an excellent analysis by Credit Suisse which takes care to estimate also the largest fortunes, which in these countries are of course particularly important. As you see the Netherlands, Russia, Sweden and the US are on top. With regard to what I've said about wages, there's a Swedish labour union (in Sweden basically who doesn't run their own company is part of a union, even managers), Unionen, which has made a list of typical wage intervals for the wages of 'systemutvecklare', a term that essentially refers to programmers. It can be found here (https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lon/marknadsloner/systemutvecklare?active-tab=0 https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lon/marknadsloner/sys...). They divide programmers into three difficulty levels, the lowest for which they suggest the wage interval 41231-54190 USD, the middle 47122-61204 USD and the highest 55319-72974 USD. This doesn't count a payroll tax called arbetsgivaravgift, which is 31.42%, so we have to multiply all these numbers by 1.3142 to get the actual pre-tax compensation: Thus we obtain 54185-71216 USD for the lowest level, 61927-80434 USD for the middle level and 72700-95902 USD for the highest level. They characterize levels as follows: for level 1 they write 'Analyserar och bedömer programförutsättningar, specificerar program samt programmerar. Testar och dokumenterar program' 'analyses and judges what is required for a program, specifies programs and programs. Tests and documents programs', level 2 'Medverkar i utveckling av IT-projekt eller förvaltar existerande IT-system och svarar för utveckling och förvaltning av delsystem. Leder delprojekt eller mindre projekt. 'participates in development of IT projects or maintenance of IT systems, being responsible for development and maintenance of subsystems. Leads subprojects or smaller projects' with level being ' Leder utveckling av nya eller förvaltning av existerande system ifråga om omfattande och komplicerade system, från framtagning av förstudie och kravspecifikation till att systemets tagits i drift hos användare.' 'Leads development of new or the maintainance of existing systems involving large and complex systems, from pre-studies and requirements specifications to when the system is made available to the user', so level 2 and 3 are for engineering managers, and even the top level has its top below 100 000 USD p.a. With regard to outcomes, in my assessment we have very severe problems of several kinds, and simultaneously; and I find the view that we have great outcomes as quite strange, although some severe outcomes for individuals are avoided. A critical aspect of our current state of society is that schools are very ill-functioning. That alone is cause for great fear.

drewcoo 4y ago

> The Soviet Union was famous, but they weren't socialist. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics wasn't socialist? Just famous? What?

raxxorraxor 4y ago
Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a direct democracy. It comes directly from the absolutist ruler.
claytongulick 4y ago
They were no true Scottsman. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
tsimionescu 4y ago
They were as socialist as they were democratic - which is to say, in name only.
donw 4y ago
You have to understand the theory behind the religion of Socialism/Communism/Democracy/Whatever The Current Re-Brand Is. A Socialist society is one in which True Equity has been achieved. The State sort of just fades out of existence, as it is no longer needed to ensure cooperation. This has never happened, because it will never happen, ergo cue the cries of "True Communism has never been tried!" The fact that every attempt has made the Nazis look like a troop of Jainist Girl Scouts is immaterial. Slaughtering a hundred million people while redefining the depths of human misery is fine and dandy, as long the goals are noble. Can't make that omelette without breaking a few eggs.
- wolverine876 4y ago
  > The fact that every attempt has made the Nazis look like a troop of Jainist Girl Scouts This is just Nazi revisionism. The Soviets were horrible, so were the Nazis. > Slaughtering a hundred million people while redefining the depths of human misery is fine and dandy, as long the goals are noble. Can't make that omelette without breaking a few eggs. Same goes for the fascists, all over the world. The problem is extremists (and their great empowerers, Western apologists).
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  One could easily point out that murdering people isn’t a function of socialism (eg Where all the dead Swedes?), but rather authoritarianism. Authoritarians — regardless of their purported economic philosophy — always leave the streets red.
  - native_samples 4y ago
    But actual attempts at socialism always require authoritarianism which is why it's never worth distinguishing them. Sweden isn't actually socialist, that's some US idea that would get you laughed at in Europe itself. Sweden is a capitalist democracy like any other. Relatively minor differences in tax rates does not a socialist country make!
    - wolverine876 4y ago
      Sweden is social democratic.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

cuteboy19 4y ago

Sweden is not socialist. Better example might have been socialist pre 1990s India

impossiblefork 4y ago

Socialism means worker ownership of all means of production. The Soviet union was quasi-socialist. It had elements of social ownership of means of production, but wasn't democratic, so means of production weren't actually in the hands of workers. Sweden was social democratic. This is not socialism, although it's sort of supposed to be: However, Sweden's social democracy failed to achieve any kind of true worker influence, in fact, it created the illusion of social equality when in fact Sweden has extreme capital concentration (Sweden is one among four countries with wealth GINI above 85-- the club is Russia, the US, Sweden and the Netherlands). Essentially the Swedish economy is controlled by a very small number of multi-billionaires. What you see in Sweden is instead redistribution from ordinary workers to slightly poorer ordinary workers and to the unemployed, so the high taxes are not actually a progressive or pro-worker policy, but a regressive policy where resources taken from successful workers are used to reduce the dissatisfaction of the poorest with the economic system. This could perhaps be acceptable if it led to high wages but this has not been the result-- with economic power comes political power, and in my assessment the the desire by the capital-owning class to keep Swedish exports competitive have led to use of low central bank interests rates, intended to reduce the value of wages, as well as a surprising political support for immigration which has existed in the political parties which has no mirror in the views of ordinary people. It has been so successful that it's not unusual to see programmers working on quite hard stuff get paid 45 000-50 000 USD per annum before taxes. At present the wage share of GDP in Sweden extraordinary low, 55%, to be compared to 59% in the US-- so Swedish workers are actually more exploited than US workers.

wolverine876 4y ago
All very interesting claims, but can you back them up? Sweden achieves great outcomes for its population, and the people there seem happy with it. They are all deceived and you know their business better than they do?
- impossiblefork 4y ago
  What claims did you have in mind, and what great outcomes? The wealth GINI data can be found here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_in...). What the page is based on is an excellent analysis by Credit Suisse which takes care to estimate also the largest fortunes, which in these countries are of course particularly important. As you see the Netherlands, Russia, Sweden and the US are on top. With regard to what I've said about wages, there's a Swedish labour union (in Sweden basically who doesn't run their own company is part of a union, even managers), Unionen, which has made a list of typical wage intervals for the wages of 'systemutvecklare', a term that essentially refers to programmers. It can be found here (https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lon/marknadsloner/systemutvecklare?active-tab=0 https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lon/marknadsloner/sys...). They divide programmers into three difficulty levels, the lowest for which they suggest the wage interval 41231-54190 USD, the middle 47122-61204 USD and the highest 55319-72974 USD. This doesn't count a payroll tax called arbetsgivaravgift, which is 31.42%, so we have to multiply all these numbers by 1.3142 to get the actual pre-tax compensation: Thus we obtain 54185-71216 USD for the lowest level, 61927-80434 USD for the middle level and 72700-95902 USD for the highest level. They characterize levels as follows: for level 1 they write 'Analyserar och bedömer programförutsättningar, specificerar program samt programmerar. Testar och dokumenterar program' 'analyses and judges what is required for a program, specifies programs and programs. Tests and documents programs', level 2 'Medverkar i utveckling av IT-projekt eller förvaltar existerande IT-system och svarar för utveckling och förvaltning av delsystem. Leder delprojekt eller mindre projekt. 'participates in development of IT projects or maintenance of IT systems, being responsible for development and maintenance of subsystems. Leads subprojects or smaller projects' with level being ' Leder utveckling av nya eller förvaltning av existerande system ifråga om omfattande och komplicerade system, från framtagning av förstudie och kravspecifikation till att systemets tagits i drift hos användare.' 'Leads development of new or the maintainance of existing systems involving large and complex systems, from pre-studies and requirements specifications to when the system is made available to the user', so level 2 and 3 are for engineering managers, and even the top level has its top below 100 000 USD p.a. With regard to outcomes, in my assessment we have very severe problems of several kinds, and simultaneously; and I find the view that we have great outcomes as quite strange, although some severe outcomes for individuals are avoided. A critical aspect of our current state of society is that schools are very ill-functioning. That alone is cause for great fear.