5 ms·

Why Erlang

45 points by sant0sk1 18y ago

jlouis 18y ago
Statelessness: Erlang is not side-effect free. Sending a message is a side-effect. You depend on receives of messages from other processes as well. Truth is that you can write side-effect-free code in any language and those functions are easier to debug. The functional semantics of erlang makes this easier, but beware that you can't cheat and get a variable. Tail recursion: Even better. Erlang has Tail-call-optimization. Any tail-call reuses the stack-frame. Lightweight processes: Large chunks of (immutable) binary data is shared among processes. This is crucial for keeping memory usage down. Also, there are ETS-tables which can be seen as a shared in-memory datastore among processes. Messaging: Sending a message is fast. But remember you are doing a copy of the data into the other process memory space (unless you are sending a binary, see above). For small messages, this doesn't matter, but you shouldn't be tempted to send that one million node binary tree ;) Hotpatching: The hotpatching is mostly centered around the ability to runtime-upgrade between versions of phone-exchange software. People tend to think of Common Lisp style hotpatching where you can dynamically build up your application from scratch without restarting the CL environment. Erlang doesn't really support that, but you can hack it to give you somewhat of the same. Fast: Erlang uses a threaded-code bytecode interpreter called BEAM (by default, there is the HiPE project). Now, the rule of the thumb is that interpretation is a factor of 10 slower than compilation. The claim of a factor 3 is wildly exaggerated. Floating points are all boxed so it is easy to get a factor 30 in difference there. The persistent memory model also costs compared to C. Some data structures are impossible to get directly. A string of 100 bytes takes up 1600 bytes on a 64-bit machine. And my own add: Parallelism: The language semantics maps really nice onto a parallel world where we explicitly control the parallel processes. But the SMP-interpreter in the Erlang kernel is still pretty young. Note that the language was originally built for concurrency rather than parallel computation. Conclusion: Erlang is a really cool language, but it is not built for everything. If people think they have solved the multi-core problem by using Erlang, the world of parallel computation is just dawning on them. Remember, there is no silver bullet.
- tsuraan 18y ago
 Just a few clarifications (upon reading, it doesn't look like hn supports html markup; I'm leaving the tags so that quotes are at least visible...): Messaging: Sending a message is fast. But remember you are doing a copy of the data into the other process memory space (unless you are sending a binary, see above). For small messages, this doesn't matter, but you shouldn't be tempted to send that one million node binary tree ;) Two points here: as you stated in the point above this one, large binaries are shared, so sending a large binary as a message isn't terribly expensive. For everything else, copying messages is an implementation detail, not a specified behaviour. If you run erl -hybrid, then all processes do share a single heap and messages are not copied (unless sent between nodes, of course). Hybrid mode is still very unstable and you don't want to use it unless it really does happen to work for you, but it's proof that the copying of message data isn't a requirement of erlang, but instead is just a current implementation detail. A string of 100 bytes takes up 1600 bytes on a 64-bit machine. Erlang strings (i.e. any string literal, such as "hi there") are implemented as linked lists of integers. If you're doing string processing on large strings, you probably want to use binaries, which are 8 bits per character (plus the binary head, which is a varint, IIRC). These can be stated as <<"Hi there">> and are much more memory-efficient, although not as convenient to work with as linked lists.
 - PieSquared 18y ago
 If you want italics, put whatever you're italicizing in asterisks. This is italics, and I typed that by writing "(asterisk) This is italics (asterisk)"
 - tsuraan 18y ago
 Cool, thanks.
- yariv 18y ago
 "People tend to think of Common Lisp style hotpatching where you can dynamically build up your application from scratch without restarting the CL environment. Erlang doesn't really support that, but you can hack it to give you somewhat of the same." I (almost) never restart my Erlang server, and that lets me develop just as you described. Why do you say it's not supported? (Btw, it really sucks to go back and use languages that don't have hot code swapping. Developing in them feels terribly slow.) Fast: if you put is_float() guards on your function definitions, Erlang will optimize their computation. If you worry about memory consumption of strings, use binaries. "Note that the language was originally built for concurrency rather than parallel computation." I don't follow this argument. Isn't the point of concurrency to implement parallelism?
qhoxie 18y ago
Despite this being largely common knowledge to those who have researched or used Erlang, he gives a really solid overview of the perks of the language. Great summary read for the uninformed about Erlang.
heyadayo 18y ago
He lost me when he said erlang is less than 3x slower than c
- jmtulloss 18y ago
  3x Is an exaggeration, but it compares pretty well with very fast languages like Java and C#. http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=hipe&lang2=gcc http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=al... http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=hipe&lang2=java http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=al...
sammyo 18y ago
Funny name? Cheap & Easy? Woo! (thread creation that is) I think it will not really take off until the general infrastructure (millions and millions of cores) is more generally pervasive.
- bstadil 18y ago
  The name is in honor of a Danish mathematician that invented Queue theory. A key component earlier in the life of telephony. How to man switchboards and the like. The telecom connection is via Erickson that invented the language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._K._Erlang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._K._Erlang
gm 18y ago
Answer: Who gives a crap? Since when did a variation of an answer matter more than the problem? If a new computer language solved a problem otherwise unsolvabe, then it would raise eyebrows. If Erlang had a chance, Scheme and all those stack-based languages would be popular. Anyway...
- nostrademons 18y ago
  Erlang solves a problem that's currently very difficult, namely massively concurrent, distributed, fault-tolerant systems.
  - gaius 18y ago
    Well, that's not strictly true. What Erlang does is make the knowledge of a niche that does know how to do that - telco switch engineers - available to the masses. I think even Erlang advocates sometimes for get that it's not new - it's been a serious production language for years now.
noahlt 18y ago
Is there a good online introduction to Erlang, like Dive into Python or _why's poignant guide to ruby?
- tsuraan 18y ago
  I think the best intro is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang/programming-erlang http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang/programming-erlang, which comes in PDF form but also costs $22.00. As far as free resources, there's http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html , which isn't nearly as fun as _why's guide, but is informative. I personally just bought the book; it's really well written and actually got me interested in using the language.

45 points by sant0sk1 18y ago

Statelessness: Erlang is not side-effect free. Sending a message is a side-effect. You depend on receives of messages from other processes as well. Truth is that you can write side-effect-free code in any language and those functions are easier to debug. The functional semantics of erlang makes this easier, but beware that you can't cheat and get a variable. Tail recursion: Even better. Erlang has Tail-call-optimization. Any tail-call reuses the stack-frame. Lightweight processes: Large chunks of (immutable) binary data is shared among processes. This is crucial for keeping memory usage down. Also, there are ETS-tables which can be seen as a shared in-memory datastore among processes. Messaging: Sending a message is fast. But remember you are doing a copy of the data into the other process memory space (unless you are sending a binary, see above). For small messages, this doesn't matter, but you shouldn't be tempted to send that one million node binary tree ;) Hotpatching: The hotpatching is mostly centered around the ability to runtime-upgrade between versions of phone-exchange software. People tend to think of Common Lisp style hotpatching where you can dynamically build up your application from scratch without restarting the CL environment. Erlang doesn't really support that, but you can hack it to give you somewhat of the same. Fast: Erlang uses a threaded-code bytecode interpreter called BEAM (by default, there is the HiPE project). Now, the rule of the thumb is that interpretation is a factor of 10 slower than compilation. The claim of a factor 3 is wildly exaggerated. Floating points are all boxed so it is easy to get a factor 30 in difference there. The persistent memory model also costs compared to C. Some data structures are impossible to get directly. A string of 100 bytes takes up 1600 bytes on a 64-bit machine. And my own add: Parallelism: The language semantics maps really nice onto a parallel world where we explicitly control the parallel processes. But the SMP-interpreter in the Erlang kernel is still pretty young. Note that the language was originally built for concurrency rather than parallel computation. Conclusion: Erlang is a really cool language, but it is not built for everything. If people think they have solved the multi-core problem by using Erlang, the world of parallel computation is just dawning on them. Remember, there is no silver bullet.

tsuraan 18y ago
Just a few clarifications (upon reading, it doesn't look like hn supports html markup; I'm leaving the tags so that quotes are at least visible...): Messaging: Sending a message is fast. But remember you are doing a copy of the data into the other process memory space (unless you are sending a binary, see above). For small messages, this doesn't matter, but you shouldn't be tempted to send that one million node binary tree ;) Two points here: as you stated in the point above this one, large binaries are shared, so sending a large binary as a message isn't terribly expensive. For everything else, copying messages is an implementation detail, not a specified behaviour. If you run erl -hybrid, then all processes do share a single heap and messages are not copied (unless sent between nodes, of course). Hybrid mode is still very unstable and you don't want to use it unless it really does happen to work for you, but it's proof that the copying of message data isn't a requirement of erlang, but instead is just a current implementation detail. A string of 100 bytes takes up 1600 bytes on a 64-bit machine. Erlang strings (i.e. any string literal, such as "hi there") are implemented as linked lists of integers. If you're doing string processing on large strings, you probably want to use binaries, which are 8 bits per character (plus the binary head, which is a varint, IIRC). These can be stated as <<"Hi there">> and are much more memory-efficient, although not as convenient to work with as linked lists.
- PieSquared 18y ago
 If you want italics, put whatever you're italicizing in asterisks. This is italics, and I typed that by writing "(asterisk) This is italics (asterisk)"
 - tsuraan 18y ago
 Cool, thanks.
yariv 18y ago
"People tend to think of Common Lisp style hotpatching where you can dynamically build up your application from scratch without restarting the CL environment. Erlang doesn't really support that, but you can hack it to give you somewhat of the same." I (almost) never restart my Erlang server, and that lets me develop just as you described. Why do you say it's not supported? (Btw, it really sucks to go back and use languages that don't have hot code swapping. Developing in them feels terribly slow.) Fast: if you put is_float() guards on your function definitions, Erlang will optimize their computation. If you worry about memory consumption of strings, use binaries. "Note that the language was originally built for concurrency rather than parallel computation." I don't follow this argument. Isn't the point of concurrency to implement parallelism?

qhoxie 18y ago

Despite this being largely common knowledge to those who have researched or used Erlang, he gives a really solid overview of the perks of the language. Great summary read for the uninformed about Erlang.

heyadayo 18y ago

He lost me when he said erlang is less than 3x slower than c

jmtulloss 18y ago
3x Is an exaggeration, but it compares pretty well with very fast languages like Java and C#. http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=hipe&lang2=gcc http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=al... http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=hipe&lang2=java http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=al...

sammyo 18y ago

Funny name? Cheap & Easy? Woo! (thread creation that is) I think it will not really take off until the general infrastructure (millions and millions of cores) is more generally pervasive.

bstadil 18y ago
The name is in honor of a Danish mathematician that invented Queue theory. A key component earlier in the life of telephony. How to man switchboards and the like. The telecom connection is via Erickson that invented the language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._K._Erlang http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._K._Erlang

gm 18y ago

Answer: Who gives a crap? Since when did a variation of an answer matter more than the problem? If a new computer language solved a problem otherwise unsolvabe, then it would raise eyebrows. If Erlang had a chance, Scheme and all those stack-based languages would be popular. Anyway...

nostrademons 18y ago
Erlang solves a problem that's currently very difficult, namely massively concurrent, distributed, fault-tolerant systems.
- gaius 18y ago
  Well, that's not strictly true. What Erlang does is make the knowledge of a niche that does know how to do that - telco switch engineers - available to the masses. I think even Erlang advocates sometimes for get that it's not new - it's been a serious production language for years now.

noahlt 18y ago

Is there a good online introduction to Erlang, like Dive into Python or _why's poignant guide to ruby?

tsuraan 18y ago
I think the best intro is http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang/programming-erlang http://www.pragprog.com/titles/jaerlang/programming-erlang, which comes in PDF form but also costs $22.00. As far as free resources, there's http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html , which isn't nearly as fun as _why's guide, but is informative. I personally just bought the book; it's really well written and actually got me interested in using the language.