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Wow they really bury the lede here. People are opposed to it because the wind farm is demanding an annual 11% return guaranteed to them. I would be opposed to t

Wow they really bury the lede here. People are opposed to it because the wind farm is demanding an annual 11% return guaranteed to them. I would be opposed to that too if I operated or lived in Iowa.

Ekaros 4y ago
I'm all for free market competition in energy production. The renewables should get zero subsidies. And nothing like net-metering should be allowed. Let the market select the cost optimal solution. At first we can apply amortized carbon tax over whole lifespan.
- atonse 4y ago
  I'm ok with that as long as we stop subsidizing fossil fuels too. The problem is that there is no such thing as a truly "Free" market, there are a lot of invisible hands tipping many scales. Also, this sentence didn't make much sense to me: "on a project it says will help in its efforts to trim carbon emissions by 75% compared to 2005 levels." Why are we comparing to 2005 levels? Why not something more recent? That's extremely suspicious. Is that before we started moving a bunch of things over from coal to gas?
  - 988747 4y ago
    What are you even referring to when talking about "subsidizing fossil fuels"? Aren't they heavily taxed in the most of the world?
    - thomasguide 4y ago
      In the U.S., which is among the largest oil producer as of recent years, the fossil fuel industry is heavily subsidized.[1] [1]https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trill...
      - atonse 4y ago
        I found this same link in just doing some research for my sibling reply, but they mentioned a lot of that $5.9tn is "implicit" (like not counting the health harms) – that feels a bit more iffy to me though.
    - atonse 4y ago
      I looked for some decent (non-partisan) sources on this [1] and was surprised that the number was so "small" in the US (given how large the industry is): $21bn. But about $290bn worldwide, down from $500bn in 2013. So they're on the downward trend which is promising. Whenever we see the multi trillion dollar numbers, they are counting "implicit" subsidies to me feels a bit more vague. I'm not sure how this compares to renewable energy subsidies. But they work in increasing adoption. I'd be ok with having those sunset too once they reach ubiquity like fossil fuels. [1]: https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-global-fossil-fuel-subsidies-how-the-united-states-can-restart-international-cooperation/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-global-fossil-f...
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  This would be an acceptable solution if we had a carbon tax that fully internalizes the externalities created by pollution. Until then the market will always undervalue renewables.
- jascii 4y ago
  We have been subsidizing the fossil fuel industry for decenia, so how would that be "free market competition"?
- breadloaf 4y ago
  Renewables are getting massive amounts of subsidies, either directly on construction, or to buy out power for fixed price or grid operator are required to buy power from renewables first.
ren_engineer 4y ago
companies building green energy would never be greedy, this is slander from big oil. Warren Buffett is building this wind farm because he cares about climate change so much

Wow they really bury the lede here. People are opposed to it because the wind farm is demanding an annual 11% return guaranteed to them. I would be opposed to that too if I operated or lived in Iowa.

Ekaros 4y ago

I'm all for free market competition in energy production. The renewables should get zero subsidies. And nothing like net-metering should be allowed. Let the market select the cost optimal solution. At first we can apply amortized carbon tax over whole lifespan.

atonse 4y ago
I'm ok with that as long as we stop subsidizing fossil fuels too. The problem is that there is no such thing as a truly "Free" market, there are a lot of invisible hands tipping many scales. Also, this sentence didn't make much sense to me: "on a project it says will help in its efforts to trim carbon emissions by 75% compared to 2005 levels." Why are we comparing to 2005 levels? Why not something more recent? That's extremely suspicious. Is that before we started moving a bunch of things over from coal to gas?
- 988747 4y ago
  What are you even referring to when talking about "subsidizing fossil fuels"? Aren't they heavily taxed in the most of the world?
  - thomasguide 4y ago
    In the U.S., which is among the largest oil producer as of recent years, the fossil fuel industry is heavily subsidized.[1] [1]https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trillion-in-subsidies-in-2020-report-finds https://e360.yale.edu/digest/fossil-fuels-received-5-9-trill...
    - atonse 4y ago
      I found this same link in just doing some research for my sibling reply, but they mentioned a lot of that $5.9tn is "implicit" (like not counting the health harms) – that feels a bit more iffy to me though.
  - atonse 4y ago
    I looked for some decent (non-partisan) sources on this [1] and was surprised that the number was so "small" in the US (given how large the industry is): $21bn. But about $290bn worldwide, down from $500bn in 2013. So they're on the downward trend which is promising. Whenever we see the multi trillion dollar numbers, they are counting "implicit" subsidies to me feels a bit more vague. I'm not sure how this compares to renewable energy subsidies. But they work in increasing adoption. I'd be ok with having those sunset too once they reach ubiquity like fossil fuels. [1]: https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-global-fossil-fuel-subsidies-how-the-united-states-can-restart-international-cooperation/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/reforming-global-fossil-f...
colinmhayes 4y ago
This would be an acceptable solution if we had a carbon tax that fully internalizes the externalities created by pollution. Until then the market will always undervalue renewables.
jascii 4y ago
We have been subsidizing the fossil fuel industry for decenia, so how would that be "free market competition"?
breadloaf 4y ago
Renewables are getting massive amounts of subsidies, either directly on construction, or to buy out power for fixed price or grid operator are required to buy power from renewables first.

ren_engineer 4y ago

companies building green energy would never be greedy, this is slander from big oil. Warren Buffett is building this wind farm because he cares about climate change so much