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Hate to be a stick in the mud, but I worry about a loss of focus when Thunderbird is one of the few in a dying category on the desktop, which is much less true

Hate to be a stick in the mud, but I worry about a loss of focus when Thunderbird is one of the few in a dying category on the desktop, which is much less true on mobile.

AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
The two work in tandem, though. I use Firefox on mobile because I use Firefox on desktop. That and it being the only Android browser that runs uBlock Origin, of course. I currently use Thunderbird on desktop, but use a combination of Gmail and Outlook on Android. If Thunderbird picks up K-9 mail and turns it into a first-class mobile client, I'll probably use Thunderbird instead of the Outlook app. People like consistency.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  - nvrspyx 4y ago
    Why be so condescending? Also, they could use Firefox on mobile to keep their history and bookmarks in sync across devices in addition to some extensions they find useful, like uBlock Origin as they mentioned. Just because the number of extensions is less than desktop doesn't mean the extensions that do exist aren't game changers for them.
  - pritambaral 4y ago
    Hey, 3 > 0. How many do you enjoy?
    - ekianjo 4y ago
      You missed the good old days of firefox on android supporting hundreds of extensions. progress, I guess?
      - input_sh 4y ago
        Ah yeah, back when page load lasted 3x as long as Chrome (on a lower end device at least). I've installed the rewrite back when it was called Firefox Preview.
    - binarysneaker 4y ago
      Long time Android Firefox user here, mainly because of Ublock. Syncing with my Mozilla account was a plus, I use Firefox on desktop because of its container tabs. Lately I switched to Brave (Android), which is noticeably faster, and supports extensions too.
  - jeltz 4y ago
    Yes, I enjoy them a lot. They, especially uBlock, are the reason I switched to Firefox Mobile from Chrome. No more annoying ads for me.
  - AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
    Works great! That's three more than Chrome supports. Plus, I'm at two now. Your post reminded me to check how many add-ons I actually have installed, and I realized that HTTPS Everywhere is no longer needed because Firefox itself rolled out an HTTPS-Only setting.
  - sanitycheck 4y ago
    I only need 1: NoScript. I hate what they've done with Mobile Firefox but it's still better than the alternatives.
  - maleldil 4y ago
    Even if Firefox for Android had only one extension (uBlock Origin), I'd still use it. Using an ad blocker is the single best thing you can do to improve your user experience on the web.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    uBlock by itself is enough to justify using Firefox on Android. Still sucks that they made it so limited, sure, but Mozilla's really good at nailing "somehow the least awful awful browser".
  - NoGravitas 4y ago
    Most of the recommended extensions on Firefox Mobile are also the most widely used and most needed (in particular uBlock Origin). But if you really need more extensions, you can jump through a bunch of hoops in Firefox Nightly to get any extension you want. Some of them even work pretty well (I use Privacy Redirect, Stylus, and Bypass Paywalls Clean in addition to some of the recommended ones).
- longrod 4y ago
  Firefox is a dying horse on its last throes before Hades claims it for its own. Mythology aside, I find it truly sad to see the state Firefox is in. A browser is an incredibly complex piece of software and what Mozilla did with Firefox is nothing short of brilliant. Alas, they have been left too far behind [0] I am afraid they'll no longer be relevant in a few years. Every few months Mozilla tries to overhaul it's UI and succeeds only to try again later. What are they trying to do? What's the real reason behind their slow descent into irrelevance? Last time I tried Firefox on Android, it was a mess. Crashing every few minutes, unpredictable. I hear its a lot better now which is great! But why did they ditch the old one? [0] https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareC... edit: added link to caniuse.com
  - itintheory 4y ago
    I'm not sure which Firefox you're using, but the description you've laid out here doesn't match my experience at all. I've been using FF on desktop and android for years and have had no issues whatsoever. In what way do you feel firefox has been "left too far behind" ? There was a time when Chrome was faster by an ample margin, but it's no longer enough to be an important distinction. Between the privacy respecting features, and plugin support on mobile - Firefox is the best choice.
    - longrod 4y ago
      A full detailed list: https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareC...
      - prophesi 4y ago
        I don't think this proves Firefox is dying. A better indicator would be Chrome's past decade of 90%+ browser market share. It's also worth noting that a good amount of the features not implemented in Firefox are either Chrome-specific experiments, or features purposefully unimplemented for privacy purposes. If anything, it shows the damage of a browser-tech monopoly which Edge and Brave aren't helping with.
- Zak 4y ago
  > That and it being the only Android browser that runs uBlock Origin, of course. There's also Kiwi. It runs pretty much any extension available for Desktop Chromium.
  - Macha 4y ago
    Though once manifest v3 is the only option, it's hard to say that'll really be as effective as uBlock Origin on Firefox: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
    - Zak 4y ago
      That's an issue. I'm really puzzled my Mozilla's sudden aversion to an open repository of extensions on Android.
      - Macha 4y ago
        Yeah, me too. My best guess is that it's PM's who are overprotective of their idea of how it should work and feel they don't have to open the box as wide as on desktop. But 20 > 0, all the same.
      - woojoo666 4y ago
        I think a lot of Firefox extensions are still broken on mobile. For example, I can't find a single tab manager / session manager that works on mobile
        Zak 4y ago
        Users can only easily install extensions from the "recommended" collection. Installing anything else requires running a development build and jumping through hoops. The Firefox team has been very clear that simply developing a reasonable working extension that some people might want does not create an expectation it will ever be recommended. So why would anybody bother writing an extension for Firefox mobile?
andyjohnson0 4y ago
> Thunderbird is one of the few in a dying category I reluctantly agree. I think that the continuing relevance of email is largely a consequence of open standards and interoperability - things that Google et al are getting less and less keen on. As well as Thunderbird allowing me to have a copy of my emails on my desktop/laptop, rather than in someone's cloud, I think its good to have an open-standard success story to point to. But in reality I use the Fastmail web client on desktop and Fastmail's app on my Android devices. Despite using Thunderbird for over a decade, nowadays I really only use it to sync a local email archive. I wish it were otherwise.
ekianjo 4y ago
its mostly dying because its so poorly optimized it chokes on mailboxes that have more than hundred emails and cant do search properly. One of the worst FOSS out there.
- jfk13 4y ago
  I have mailboxes with tens of thousands of emails in them, and it works pretty well for me.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    Try a search and be in awe at how long it takes to spit results.
- aiisjustanif 4y ago
  Are we talking about Thunderbird because it performs very well.
- tssva 4y ago
  Hacker News users are much more likely to have vast email archives organized into folders which must be regularly searched than the general public. Most people have no choice regarding work email. Web email clients and the default mobile clients meet most people's personal email requirements. In other words 3rd party email clients are dying because there is a lack of demand.
- emodendroket 4y ago
  The search functionality definitely could use work. But that’s my point. What other desktop email clients are you going to use instead?
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    Not GUI per se but there's mutt that has high performance. That's why GUI clients are not popular anymore either, because they perform very, very poorly.
NoGravitas 4y ago
In the Free Software space on mobile, though, there are not so many usable mail apps. Basically just K-9 Mail and FairEmail, as far as I know.
NoboruWataya 4y ago
There are basically two good, actively developed FOSS email apps for Android: K-9 and FairEmail. Development of FairEmail almost ceased recently, as the developer was having issues with Google Play and no longer felt it was worth his time to work on the app. Thankfully he ultimately decided to continue development. I remember last year there was also a big campaign to get more donations for K-9 as the developers badly needed more resources to continue development. The category of FOSS email apps may not be dying, but it is small, and never far away from death. Having a large, established project with decent resources backing K-9 is definitely a good thing for the health of the category IMO. Personally I use FairEmail and hope that it will continue to thrive as well.
LoveGracePeace 4y ago
Mobile and modern Web are dying and the Desktop is making a comeback, just going from sentiments expressed in various forums.

Hate to be a stick in the mud, but I worry about a loss of focus when Thunderbird is one of the few in a dying category on the desktop, which is much less true on mobile.

AdmiralAsshat 4y ago

The two work in tandem, though. I use Firefox on mobile because I use Firefox on desktop. That and it being the only Android browser that runs uBlock Origin, of course. I currently use Thunderbird on desktop, but use a combination of Gmail and Outlook on Android. If Thunderbird picks up K-9 mail and turns it into a first-class mobile client, I'll probably use Thunderbird instead of the Outlook app. People like consistency.

ekianjo 4y ago
- nvrspyx 4y ago
  Why be so condescending? Also, they could use Firefox on mobile to keep their history and bookmarks in sync across devices in addition to some extensions they find useful, like uBlock Origin as they mentioned. Just because the number of extensions is less than desktop doesn't mean the extensions that do exist aren't game changers for them.
- pritambaral 4y ago
  Hey, 3 > 0. How many do you enjoy?
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    You missed the good old days of firefox on android supporting hundreds of extensions. progress, I guess?
    - input_sh 4y ago
      Ah yeah, back when page load lasted 3x as long as Chrome (on a lower end device at least). I've installed the rewrite back when it was called Firefox Preview.
  - binarysneaker 4y ago
    Long time Android Firefox user here, mainly because of Ublock. Syncing with my Mozilla account was a plus, I use Firefox on desktop because of its container tabs. Lately I switched to Brave (Android), which is noticeably faster, and supports extensions too.
- jeltz 4y ago
  Yes, I enjoy them a lot. They, especially uBlock, are the reason I switched to Firefox Mobile from Chrome. No more annoying ads for me.
- AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
  Works great! That's three more than Chrome supports. Plus, I'm at two now. Your post reminded me to check how many add-ons I actually have installed, and I realized that HTTPS Everywhere is no longer needed because Firefox itself rolled out an HTTPS-Only setting.
- sanitycheck 4y ago
  I only need 1: NoScript. I hate what they've done with Mobile Firefox but it's still better than the alternatives.
- maleldil 4y ago
  Even if Firefox for Android had only one extension (uBlock Origin), I'd still use it. Using an ad blocker is the single best thing you can do to improve your user experience on the web.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  uBlock by itself is enough to justify using Firefox on Android. Still sucks that they made it so limited, sure, but Mozilla's really good at nailing "somehow the least awful awful browser".
- NoGravitas 4y ago
  Most of the recommended extensions on Firefox Mobile are also the most widely used and most needed (in particular uBlock Origin). But if you really need more extensions, you can jump through a bunch of hoops in Firefox Nightly to get any extension you want. Some of them even work pretty well (I use Privacy Redirect, Stylus, and Bypass Paywalls Clean in addition to some of the recommended ones).
longrod 4y ago
Firefox is a dying horse on its last throes before Hades claims it for its own. Mythology aside, I find it truly sad to see the state Firefox is in. A browser is an incredibly complex piece of software and what Mozilla did with Firefox is nothing short of brilliant. Alas, they have been left too far behind [0] I am afraid they'll no longer be relevant in a few years. Every few months Mozilla tries to overhaul it's UI and succeeds only to try again later. What are they trying to do? What's the real reason behind their slow descent into irrelevance? Last time I tried Firefox on Android, it was a mess. Crashing every few minutes, unpredictable. I hear its a lot better now which is great! But why did they ditch the old one? [0] https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareC... edit: added link to caniuse.com
- itintheory 4y ago
  I'm not sure which Firefox you're using, but the description you've laid out here doesn't match my experience at all. I've been using FF on desktop and android for years and have had no issues whatsoever. In what way do you feel firefox has been "left too far behind" ? There was a time when Chrome was faster by an ample margin, but it's no longer enough to be an important distinction. Between the privacy respecting features, and plugin support on mobile - Firefox is the best choice.
  - longrod 4y ago
    A full detailed list: https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareCats=all https://caniuse.com/?compare=firefox+101,chrome+102&compareC...
    - prophesi 4y ago
      I don't think this proves Firefox is dying. A better indicator would be Chrome's past decade of 90%+ browser market share. It's also worth noting that a good amount of the features not implemented in Firefox are either Chrome-specific experiments, or features purposefully unimplemented for privacy purposes. If anything, it shows the damage of a browser-tech monopoly which Edge and Brave aren't helping with.
Zak 4y ago
> That and it being the only Android browser that runs uBlock Origin, of course. There's also Kiwi. It runs pretty much any extension available for Desktop Chromium.
- Macha 4y ago
  Though once manifest v3 is the only option, it's hard to say that'll really be as effective as uBlock Origin on Firefox: https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-best-on-Firefox https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock/wiki/uBlock-Origin-works-b...
  - Zak 4y ago
    That's an issue. I'm really puzzled my Mozilla's sudden aversion to an open repository of extensions on Android.
    - Macha 4y ago
      Yeah, me too. My best guess is that it's PM's who are overprotective of their idea of how it should work and feel they don't have to open the box as wide as on desktop. But 20 > 0, all the same.
    - woojoo666 4y ago
      I think a lot of Firefox extensions are still broken on mobile. For example, I can't find a single tab manager / session manager that works on mobile
      - Zak 4y ago
        Users can only easily install extensions from the "recommended" collection. Installing anything else requires running a development build and jumping through hoops. The Firefox team has been very clear that simply developing a reasonable working extension that some people might want does not create an expectation it will ever be recommended. So why would anybody bother writing an extension for Firefox mobile?

andyjohnson0 4y ago

> Thunderbird is one of the few in a dying category I reluctantly agree. I think that the continuing relevance of email is largely a consequence of open standards and interoperability - things that Google et al are getting less and less keen on. As well as Thunderbird allowing me to have a copy of my emails on my desktop/laptop, rather than in someone's cloud, I think its good to have an open-standard success story to point to. But in reality I use the Fastmail web client on desktop and Fastmail's app on my Android devices. Despite using Thunderbird for over a decade, nowadays I really only use it to sync a local email archive. I wish it were otherwise.

ekianjo 4y ago

its mostly dying because its so poorly optimized it chokes on mailboxes that have more than hundred emails and cant do search properly. One of the worst FOSS out there.

jfk13 4y ago
I have mailboxes with tens of thousands of emails in them, and it works pretty well for me.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  Try a search and be in awe at how long it takes to spit results.
aiisjustanif 4y ago
Are we talking about Thunderbird because it performs very well.
tssva 4y ago
Hacker News users are much more likely to have vast email archives organized into folders which must be regularly searched than the general public. Most people have no choice regarding work email. Web email clients and the default mobile clients meet most people's personal email requirements. In other words 3rd party email clients are dying because there is a lack of demand.
emodendroket 4y ago
The search functionality definitely could use work. But that’s my point. What other desktop email clients are you going to use instead?
- ekianjo 4y ago
  Not GUI per se but there's mutt that has high performance. That's why GUI clients are not popular anymore either, because they perform very, very poorly.

NoGravitas 4y ago

In the Free Software space on mobile, though, there are not so many usable mail apps. Basically just K-9 Mail and FairEmail, as far as I know.

NoboruWataya 4y ago

There are basically two good, actively developed FOSS email apps for Android: K-9 and FairEmail. Development of FairEmail almost ceased recently, as the developer was having issues with Google Play and no longer felt it was worth his time to work on the app. Thankfully he ultimately decided to continue development. I remember last year there was also a big campaign to get more donations for K-9 as the developers badly needed more resources to continue development. The category of FOSS email apps may not be dying, but it is small, and never far away from death. Having a large, established project with decent resources backing K-9 is definitely a good thing for the health of the category IMO. Personally I use FairEmail and hope that it will continue to thrive as well.

LoveGracePeace 4y ago

Mobile and modern Web are dying and the Desktop is making a comeback, just going from sentiments expressed in various forums.