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> Immigrant/descendant: High risk of long term unemployment, right away. (Edit: Apparently except non-western immigrants, based on the source code!) The latter

> Immigrant/descendant: High risk of long term unemployment, right away. (Edit: Apparently except non-western immigrants, based on the source code!) The latter part is probably on the basis that non-Western immigrants mostly needed skilled worker visas, whereas descendents and 'Westerners' (which apparently maps to "EU members" in this case) don't. Though as with most of the rest of it I'd struggle to see this as a conclusion from advanced modelling and not just a stereotype kept relevant largely by not asking the descendent or 'Westerner' what type of work they'd been doing and how long they'd worked in Denmark

hash07e 4y ago
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- bildung 4y ago
  Germany is a bit special here because refugees often are not allowed to work at all, or, depending on their status, are only allowed to work under certain conditions. This was introduced by the conservative parties as a juridical answer to fears of immigrants "stealing" jobs.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - hash07e 4y ago
    [dead]
    - bildung 4y ago
      It's literally law, and has been for decades. See here, directly from the federal government: https://www.bmas.de/DE/Arbeit/Fachkraeftesicherung-und-Integration/Migration-und-Arbeit/Flucht-und-Aysl/arbeitsmarktzugang-fuer-fluechtlinge.html https://www.bmas.de/DE/Arbeit/Fachkraeftesicherung-und-Integ...
      - hash07e 4y ago
        From google translator 1. after three months for asylum seekers who are not obliged to live in a reception facility, 2. after six months of asylum seekers with minor children, 3. after nine months of asylum seekers without minor children (even despite the obligation to live in a reception facility). Comparing to US A 565 Authorization to work in US is at 6-9 months wait. that study data was from 2016 onwards... There was enough time..
        bildung 4y ago
        Those are * minimum times, i.e. they don't automatically have rights afterwards, but have to obtain a permission for working first ("Arbeitserlaubnis") * those minimum times prolong as long as immigrants live in special immigrant housing ("Aufnahmeeinrichtung"), i.e. as long es they don't live in normal housing. Which they can only get if the ministry grants them that (in my town there are still quite a share of syrian immigrants living in that kind of housing, not normal housing in town). * additionally, even after that, the employer has to show that a) no German of comparable qualification wanted the job, and b) no EU citizen of comparable qualification wanted the job. Edit: > that study data was from 2016 onwards... There was enough time.. "onwards" is only 2017. Your source only compares 2016 to 2017. 2016 is the year when most syrian refugees arrived in Germany. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtlingskrise_in_Deutschland_2015/2016#/media/Datei:Zahl_der_Erstantr%C3%A4ge_auf_Asyl_(Eurostat).svg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtlingskrise_in_Deuts...
        hash07e 4y ago
        even if you consider 11 months the data is still valid. Are we moving goal post?
    - ginko 4y ago
      >The conservatives have no power in Germany Did you somehow miss 16 years of conservative government in Germany?
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        Conservative by German standards is pretty liberal by US standards.
- DoughnutHole 4y ago
  You've completely misrepresented the statements of that document - it's specifically about refugees, not all "men and woman from non western countries". Of course refugees are vastly more likely to be unemployed - 2/3 came from the Syrian civil war and there's no guarantee of entering the country with in-demand skills or any understanding of the language. Germany has 1.24 million refugees, but it has ~14 million first-generation immigrants including over a million Turks. People who immigrated for work and had to apply for visas are going to have completely different employment outcomes than a surge of war refugees.
  - hash07e 4y ago
    So please provide the stats from "first-generation" immigrants. They are public right? Right?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - bildung 4y ago
      By law their residency was on the condition of employment or self-employment, so close to 100% by definition. Nowadays they are either naturalized (so no immigrants anymore) or pensioned, or returned back home after their work life ended, or already died. Keep in mind that this immigration wave was 40 to 50 years ago. And yes, all of this is easily findable public data.
      - hash07e 4y ago
        "By law their residency was on the condition of employment or self-employment, so close to 100% by definition" That is a very strong "stimulus" to keep people working and being integrated. Do we have the same today? "And yes, all of this is easily findable public data." Please may you provide the link with first-generation employment status?
- notahacker 4y ago
  I'm not sure why you think a statistic applying to a different group (refugees are not all "non-Western immigrants", especially not in Denmark) in a different country in a different direction is particularly relevant. Actually, scratch that, looking at your account history I can see exactly why...
silvestrov 4y ago
There are (compared to SV) very few asians in Denmark. They also integrate well so the Danish "I don't have a job" system isn't focused on them. It is a long-standing taboo to split "non-Western" into "middle east" and "asian". Avoiding the split makes the bad numbers less noticeable.

hash07e 4y ago

[dead]

bildung 4y ago
Germany is a bit special here because refugees often are not allowed to work at all, or, depending on their status, are only allowed to work under certain conditions. This was introduced by the conservative parties as a juridical answer to fears of immigrants "stealing" jobs.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- hash07e 4y ago
  [dead]
  - bildung 4y ago
    It's literally law, and has been for decades. See here, directly from the federal government: https://www.bmas.de/DE/Arbeit/Fachkraeftesicherung-und-Integration/Migration-und-Arbeit/Flucht-und-Aysl/arbeitsmarktzugang-fuer-fluechtlinge.html https://www.bmas.de/DE/Arbeit/Fachkraeftesicherung-und-Integ...
    - hash07e 4y ago
      From google translator 1. after three months for asylum seekers who are not obliged to live in a reception facility, 2. after six months of asylum seekers with minor children, 3. after nine months of asylum seekers without minor children (even despite the obligation to live in a reception facility). Comparing to US A 565 Authorization to work in US is at 6-9 months wait. that study data was from 2016 onwards... There was enough time..
      - bildung 4y ago
        Those are * minimum times, i.e. they don't automatically have rights afterwards, but have to obtain a permission for working first ("Arbeitserlaubnis") * those minimum times prolong as long as immigrants live in special immigrant housing ("Aufnahmeeinrichtung"), i.e. as long es they don't live in normal housing. Which they can only get if the ministry grants them that (in my town there are still quite a share of syrian immigrants living in that kind of housing, not normal housing in town). * additionally, even after that, the employer has to show that a) no German of comparable qualification wanted the job, and b) no EU citizen of comparable qualification wanted the job. Edit: > that study data was from 2016 onwards... There was enough time.. "onwards" is only 2017. Your source only compares 2016 to 2017. 2016 is the year when most syrian refugees arrived in Germany. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtlingskrise_in_Deutschland_2015/2016#/media/Datei:Zahl_der_Erstantr%C3%A4ge_auf_Asyl_(Eurostat).svg https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fl%C3%BCchtlingskrise_in_Deuts...
        hash07e 4y ago
        even if you consider 11 months the data is still valid. Are we moving goal post?
  - ginko 4y ago
    >The conservatives have no power in Germany Did you somehow miss 16 years of conservative government in Germany?
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      Conservative by German standards is pretty liberal by US standards.
DoughnutHole 4y ago
You've completely misrepresented the statements of that document - it's specifically about refugees, not all "men and woman from non western countries". Of course refugees are vastly more likely to be unemployed - 2/3 came from the Syrian civil war and there's no guarantee of entering the country with in-demand skills or any understanding of the language. Germany has 1.24 million refugees, but it has ~14 million first-generation immigrants including over a million Turks. People who immigrated for work and had to apply for visas are going to have completely different employment outcomes than a surge of war refugees.
- hash07e 4y ago
  So please provide the stats from "first-generation" immigrants. They are public right? Right?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - bildung 4y ago
    By law their residency was on the condition of employment or self-employment, so close to 100% by definition. Nowadays they are either naturalized (so no immigrants anymore) or pensioned, or returned back home after their work life ended, or already died. Keep in mind that this immigration wave was 40 to 50 years ago. And yes, all of this is easily findable public data.
    - hash07e 4y ago
      "By law their residency was on the condition of employment or self-employment, so close to 100% by definition" That is a very strong "stimulus" to keep people working and being integrated. Do we have the same today? "And yes, all of this is easily findable public data." Please may you provide the link with first-generation employment status?
notahacker 4y ago
I'm not sure why you think a statistic applying to a different group (refugees are not all "non-Western immigrants", especially not in Denmark) in a different country in a different direction is particularly relevant. Actually, scratch that, looking at your account history I can see exactly why...

silvestrov 4y ago

There are (compared to SV) very few asians in Denmark. They also integrate well so the Danish "I don't have a job" system isn't focused on them. It is a long-standing taboo to split "non-Western" into "middle east" and "asian". Avoiding the split makes the bad numbers less noticeable.