4 ms·

The EU is the most unintentionally hilarious confederation. It's completely inside out. Coordinate foreign affairs? Nope Able to police external borders? Nope

The EU is the most unintentionally hilarious confederation. It's completely inside out. Coordinate foreign affairs? Nope Able to police external borders? Nope Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? Not even remotely But banning IC engines, mandating dongle size, and giving the world cookie popups? You bet!

AndrewOMartin 4y ago
Well, yeah. If you put it like that.
ChemSpider 4y ago
You must be living under a rock: Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country?
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) US led and coordinated Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Famously ineffective in 2015. Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country? The near abroad of the EU is not the EU, they are its neighbouring states.
  - arez 4y ago
    in 2015 it was agreed to let people in. Luckily we don't have gates that we open and close, but the countries in the EU agreed that this was a humanitarian crisis and decided to take some amounts of foreigners in.
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >in 2015 it was agreed to let people in There was no common EU agreement to do that though. It was mostly Germany posturing for good PR and to try to save their ageing demographics and supplement their manufacturing sector which is dependent on imported cheap labor to stay competitive, as the cheap labor from the Eastern Block dried up. Denmark and other EU members chose to opt out from the refugee sharing scheme back then, denying to take them in, and this was also one of the main factors that violently triggered Brexit as lots of brits feared the idea of having to be obliged to take in unwanted people just because that's what Germany was suggesting to other members. All it did was create dissident among EU members and help break up the EU.
      - arez 4y ago
        first you say there was no agreement and then you say there was a sharing agreement, how does this fit together? Also germany needs some cheap labor but manufacturing isn't the main part, manufacturing is actually quiet expensive due to strong unions in germany especially in car manufacturing etc. and yes, brexit happened also because of these things, but as you can see now, letting foreigners in doesn't need to be bad, it's more the other way around, you can't find truck drivers, bus drivers etc. anymore in the UK.
        ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        > manufacturing is actually quiet expensive due to strong unions in germany especially in car manufacturing etc. Except that not all industries are unionized so workers' exploitation is rampant, especially in low margin, low wage industries like fruit and vegetable picking, meat, hospitality, etc. where most of the migrant workers end up. The exploitation of migrants during Covid was even documented on DW. Through work, I once had to vist one of the biggest meat plants in Germany, and nearly half the workers were Polish, and the other half Romanian. I asked them if they're unionized, they said 'no'. Q.E.D.
        arez 4y ago
        Q.E.D, lol :D manufacturing vegetables and meat? I'm talking about cars, screws, machine. Nobody manufactures vegetables or meat :D but you mean packaging, ok, but germany is not big in that either, that's only some but mostly for the domestic market
  - ranguna 4y ago
    > US led and coordinated US led US sanctions, not all sanctions are US sanctions. > The near abroad of the EU is not the EU, they are its neighbouring states. They are indeed EU neighbour states, but they are not EU member states.
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      You're really struggling with my use of the term "near abroad". Let me clarify again - I mean states that border EU member states, but that are not themselves EU member states.
      - freemint 4y ago
        The USoA by the same metric is also struggling suppressing drug cartels in Mexico, even though they have a war on drugs ongoing and it is a neighbouring country. Let's not get started about the USoAs capabilities of protecting their border.
- baud147258 4y ago
  > Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country? I'd say it's more down to NATO membership than anything from the EU
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex That hasn't really worked in practice though, as illegal migrants discovered that if you sail a boat towards EU borders and intentionally sink it when Frontex tries to intercept, then they're obliged to rescue and take you to Europe, instead of sending you back for trespassing without a visa, meaning anyone could exploit this loophole to enter Europe illegally. That's hardly an effective border protection.
  - pasabagi 4y ago
    If they don't have a legitimate claim to asylum, they can be sent back. The problem is, the vast majority do, and since that right stems from fundamental human rights, you can't simply remove it. That, and the better angels of european conscience remember that it was our grandparents, and the governments they elected, who turned away the jewish refugees seeking asylum from the Nazis. Sadly, since the apple never falls all that far from the tree, there is always a lot of support for making it practically impossible for refugees to claim the protections that are enshrined in the core principle of the EU. So, that's why people are attempting dangerous sea crossings.
jakkos 4y ago
> banning IC engines, mandating dongle size, and giving the world cookie popups? Am I meant to think that: banning one of the biggest contributors to climate change, lessening walled gardens and e-waste, and giving us more control of our own data are bad things?
- wickedsight 4y ago
  They are if you drink the megacorp coolaid. There's so much opinion making going on by companies that have a lot to lose from this stuff. Remember when Facebook said that GDPR would mostly hurt small businesses that use Facebook for targeted ads? That one didn't really stick, but those types of stories are getting people to defend corporate interests even though they have no real reason to.
kungito 4y ago
How about GDPR, obligatory warranty periods, and other consumer protections? Also, there are things like Schengen which are not the same as EU. I always felt like EU is a citizen-centric union while USA is a business-centric union. Also, EU is progressing slowly with integrating various aspects of governing while trying to respect individuality of separate countries.
seszett 4y ago
Since the EU started out as an economic union, it seems on the contrary very logical that its priority is regulating the market rather than military considerations. Cooperation on military and foreign affairs is developing though, so I think you are just misinformed on the EU and its purpose.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  I understand how the EU started and its purpose. I Just find it a bizarre way to integrate inside out, by aligning internal economic policies. The cynic in me thinks it thrives because it's a bureaucrat and civil service wet dream. I feel like the hardcore pro-european people must feel this deep down and be deeply ashamed that - in 2022 - they are still completely reliant on the US security umbrella despite their increasing edge (on paper at least) over their neighbouring "rival".
Angostura 4y ago
I think you find it hilarious because you misunderstand its purpose its a bit like me laughing at the US federal government because it can't even put consistent marriage or abortion laws in place across the country. The EU's roots are as a common trading block - it is built around the foundation of a single market, removing barriers to trade across countries. A common defense policy isn't part of that, external borders are nominally a matter for those countries - it is internal borders that the EU is centrally concerned with. Common connectors for phones, clearly falls within the ambit of a seamless internal market, internal combustion engines too - given that the countries have adopted similar positions on climate change and want the market to reflect that. Cookie popups were a stupid industry innovation designed to try and circumvent EU data privacy rules.
- toyg 4y ago
  > t is built around the foundation of a single market, removing barriers to trade across countries. Somewhat ironically, that's also the basic principle enshrining the primacy of the US federal government - rules for interstate commerce. The main difference between the US system and EU system is that one was effectively built top-down, and the other bottom-up. At some point, they will likely reach a similar equilibrium, with US states becoming more and more independent and EU states less and less so.
  - seanw444 4y ago
    > with US states becoming more and more independent I can only dream.
    - toyg 4y ago
      I see it as inevitable. As population grows even in remote areas, the system will have to accept that certain issues are unreconcilable at federal level. Chances are you already know what those issues are, but the list can only grow.
- AbrahamParangi 4y ago
  Moving the blame from the EU data privacy rules to literally everyone else is frankly just ridiculous.
arez 4y ago
- foreign affairs are mostly coordinated with each state, not so much with the EU as a whole - They police their borders sadly quiet heavily, if you think about pushbacks in greece and the whole frontex operation. - EU is not a military alliance and doesn't have an army, even though they thought about it. So most states rely on their own army and NATO. - So why do they care about IC engines, dongle size and cookie? Because the EU is about trading policy, consumer rights, privacy, worker rights and much more. Is it inside out for you because you misunderstood what's it's role is maybe?
pasabagi 4y ago
I think you've been watching too much Fox. The EU is almost totally within NATO, so when you're using the word 'deterrence', and 'near abroad', you're not talking about defensive deterrence. You're talking about the ability to project hard power. That's something most EU citizens have no interest in. When you're talking about 'policing external borders', you're both ignorant of the reality (EU power projection in the 'near abroad' has led to the non-EU states in the periphery stemming migrant flows), and you're again, arguing the EU is lacking something most of its citizens do not want. The vast majority of arrivals in the EU have legitimate claims to asylum, and human rights are a more important value than having proper paperwork. The regulation stuff is what the EU is supposed to do. The whole elevator pitch of the EU is you get all the economic integration without the political integration. So banning IC engines, establishing standards, that kind of stuff, is part of the program. That's why a disparate set of nations that often hate eachother all want to be part of the same union.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
Symbiote 4y ago
> "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." > "Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

AndrewOMartin 4y ago

Well, yeah. If you put it like that.

ChemSpider 4y ago

You must be living under a rock: Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country?

LAC-Tech 4y ago
Coordinate foreign affairs? => Yes (e. g. Russia sanctions) US led and coordinated Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex Famously ineffective in 2015. Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country? The near abroad of the EU is not the EU, they are its neighbouring states.
- arez 4y ago
  in 2015 it was agreed to let people in. Luckily we don't have gates that we open and close, but the countries in the EU agreed that this was a humanitarian crisis and decided to take some amounts of foreigners in.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >in 2015 it was agreed to let people in There was no common EU agreement to do that though. It was mostly Germany posturing for good PR and to try to save their ageing demographics and supplement their manufacturing sector which is dependent on imported cheap labor to stay competitive, as the cheap labor from the Eastern Block dried up. Denmark and other EU members chose to opt out from the refugee sharing scheme back then, denying to take them in, and this was also one of the main factors that violently triggered Brexit as lots of brits feared the idea of having to be obliged to take in unwanted people just because that's what Germany was suggesting to other members. All it did was create dissident among EU members and help break up the EU.
    - arez 4y ago
      first you say there was no agreement and then you say there was a sharing agreement, how does this fit together? Also germany needs some cheap labor but manufacturing isn't the main part, manufacturing is actually quiet expensive due to strong unions in germany especially in car manufacturing etc. and yes, brexit happened also because of these things, but as you can see now, letting foreigners in doesn't need to be bad, it's more the other way around, you can't find truck drivers, bus drivers etc. anymore in the UK.
      - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
        > manufacturing is actually quiet expensive due to strong unions in germany especially in car manufacturing etc. Except that not all industries are unionized so workers' exploitation is rampant, especially in low margin, low wage industries like fruit and vegetable picking, meat, hospitality, etc. where most of the migrant workers end up. The exploitation of migrants during Covid was even documented on DW. Through work, I once had to vist one of the biggest meat plants in Germany, and nearly half the workers were Polish, and the other half Romanian. I asked them if they're unionized, they said 'no'. Q.E.D.
        arez 4y ago
        Q.E.D, lol :D manufacturing vegetables and meat? I'm talking about cars, screws, machine. Nobody manufactures vegetables or meat :D but you mean packaging, ok, but germany is not big in that either, that's only some but mostly for the domestic market
- ranguna 4y ago
  > US led and coordinated US led US sanctions, not all sanctions are US sanctions. > The near abroad of the EU is not the EU, they are its neighbouring states. They are indeed EU neighbour states, but they are not EU member states.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    You're really struggling with my use of the term "near abroad". Let me clarify again - I mean states that border EU member states, but that are not themselves EU member states.
    - freemint 4y ago
      The USoA by the same metric is also struggling suppressing drug cartels in Mexico, even though they have a war on drugs ongoing and it is a neighbouring country. Let's not get started about the USoAs capabilities of protecting their border.
baud147258 4y ago
> Credible military deterrence in its near abroad? => When was the last time anyone attacked an EU country? I'd say it's more down to NATO membership than anything from the EU
ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Able to police external borders? => Yes, Frontex That hasn't really worked in practice though, as illegal migrants discovered that if you sail a boat towards EU borders and intentionally sink it when Frontex tries to intercept, then they're obliged to rescue and take you to Europe, instead of sending you back for trespassing without a visa, meaning anyone could exploit this loophole to enter Europe illegally. That's hardly an effective border protection.
- pasabagi 4y ago
  If they don't have a legitimate claim to asylum, they can be sent back. The problem is, the vast majority do, and since that right stems from fundamental human rights, you can't simply remove it. That, and the better angels of european conscience remember that it was our grandparents, and the governments they elected, who turned away the jewish refugees seeking asylum from the Nazis. Sadly, since the apple never falls all that far from the tree, there is always a lot of support for making it practically impossible for refugees to claim the protections that are enshrined in the core principle of the EU. So, that's why people are attempting dangerous sea crossings.

jakkos 4y ago

> banning IC engines, mandating dongle size, and giving the world cookie popups? Am I meant to think that: banning one of the biggest contributors to climate change, lessening walled gardens and e-waste, and giving us more control of our own data are bad things?

wickedsight 4y ago
They are if you drink the megacorp coolaid. There's so much opinion making going on by companies that have a lot to lose from this stuff. Remember when Facebook said that GDPR would mostly hurt small businesses that use Facebook for targeted ads? That one didn't really stick, but those types of stories are getting people to defend corporate interests even though they have no real reason to.

kungito 4y ago

How about GDPR, obligatory warranty periods, and other consumer protections? Also, there are things like Schengen which are not the same as EU. I always felt like EU is a citizen-centric union while USA is a business-centric union. Also, EU is progressing slowly with integrating various aspects of governing while trying to respect individuality of separate countries.

seszett 4y ago

Since the EU started out as an economic union, it seems on the contrary very logical that its priority is regulating the market rather than military considerations. Cooperation on military and foreign affairs is developing though, so I think you are just misinformed on the EU and its purpose.

LAC-Tech 4y ago
I understand how the EU started and its purpose. I Just find it a bizarre way to integrate inside out, by aligning internal economic policies. The cynic in me thinks it thrives because it's a bureaucrat and civil service wet dream. I feel like the hardcore pro-european people must feel this deep down and be deeply ashamed that - in 2022 - they are still completely reliant on the US security umbrella despite their increasing edge (on paper at least) over their neighbouring "rival".

Angostura 4y ago

I think you find it hilarious because you misunderstand its purpose its a bit like me laughing at the US federal government because it can't even put consistent marriage or abortion laws in place across the country. The EU's roots are as a common trading block - it is built around the foundation of a single market, removing barriers to trade across countries. A common defense policy isn't part of that, external borders are nominally a matter for those countries - it is internal borders that the EU is centrally concerned with. Common connectors for phones, clearly falls within the ambit of a seamless internal market, internal combustion engines too - given that the countries have adopted similar positions on climate change and want the market to reflect that. Cookie popups were a stupid industry innovation designed to try and circumvent EU data privacy rules.

toyg 4y ago
> t is built around the foundation of a single market, removing barriers to trade across countries. Somewhat ironically, that's also the basic principle enshrining the primacy of the US federal government - rules for interstate commerce. The main difference between the US system and EU system is that one was effectively built top-down, and the other bottom-up. At some point, they will likely reach a similar equilibrium, with US states becoming more and more independent and EU states less and less so.
- seanw444 4y ago
  > with US states becoming more and more independent I can only dream.
  - toyg 4y ago
    I see it as inevitable. As population grows even in remote areas, the system will have to accept that certain issues are unreconcilable at federal level. Chances are you already know what those issues are, but the list can only grow.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
Moving the blame from the EU data privacy rules to literally everyone else is frankly just ridiculous.

arez 4y ago

- foreign affairs are mostly coordinated with each state, not so much with the EU as a whole - They police their borders sadly quiet heavily, if you think about pushbacks in greece and the whole frontex operation. - EU is not a military alliance and doesn't have an army, even though they thought about it. So most states rely on their own army and NATO. - So why do they care about IC engines, dongle size and cookie? Because the EU is about trading policy, consumer rights, privacy, worker rights and much more. Is it inside out for you because you misunderstood what's it's role is maybe?

pasabagi 4y ago

I think you've been watching too much Fox. The EU is almost totally within NATO, so when you're using the word 'deterrence', and 'near abroad', you're not talking about defensive deterrence. You're talking about the ability to project hard power. That's something most EU citizens have no interest in. When you're talking about 'policing external borders', you're both ignorant of the reality (EU power projection in the 'near abroad' has led to the non-EU states in the periphery stemming migrant flows), and you're again, arguing the EU is lacking something most of its citizens do not want. The vast majority of arrivals in the EU have legitimate claims to asylum, and human rights are a more important value than having proper paperwork. The regulation stuff is what the EU is supposed to do. The whole elevator pitch of the EU is you get all the economic integration without the political integration. So banning IC engines, establishing standards, that kind of stuff, is part of the program. That's why a disparate set of nations that often hate eachother all want to be part of the same union.

LAC-Tech 4y ago

Symbiote 4y ago

> "Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents." > "Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html