8 ms·

Commuting by bike isn't going to happen. It's not practical for most business and personal purposes. Electric scooters have a better shot than bikes. (Still not

by blfr 4y ago

Commuting by bike isn't going to happen. It's not practical for most business and personal purposes. Electric scooters have a better shot than bikes. (Still not going to happen.) The only alternative to cars in cities is working public transit. And working means available, frequent, safe, and clean. You can't have homeless people sleeping on buses, you can't turn it off at 1 am. Regular people need to be able to rely on it.

sofixa 4y ago
Bikes and electric scooters can very well supplement public transit, at least for the "last mile". Cities like Paris and Amsterdam have very good public transit, but biking is still popular, even in wind, rain and cold. People bike in freaking Oulu, Finland, even with the snow and cold. It's a perfectly viable supplement to good public transit.
- codebolt 4y ago
  As a northern European, I can confirm. The nearest train station is a 10 minute bike ride from my house. From there the rest of my commute is a breeze. If I was to drive I'd be stuck in traffic much longer. And it's nice to get some fresh air to start the day. Only problem is the few months of snow.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    I believe you that your commute is fine but I think you don’t understand how much Americans love convenience. How do I work a McDonalds drive through into that trip? Can yon get bikes with cup holders for a 32 ounce beverage? Of course it’s not just Americans. I’ve got southern German friends who love the American car centric lifestyle.
- jimbob45 4y ago
  Sure, that works very well for European cities where moderate temperatures are the norm. For the heat of Texas, Arizona, Florida, and New Mexico? For the freezing temperatures in Minnesota, Alaska, and North Dakota? You would quickly die. Furthermore, our cities are simply bigger and more spread out. You’ll counter by saying we need denser, more walkable cities even though we obviously can’t just tear down our cities and start from scratch.
  - piva00 4y ago
    I bike all year long in Sweden, it's doable with the right gear and clothing. And I'm not even originally from a cold country, I'm Brazilian, living here for 7 years and used to bike in the heat of Brazil as well. This is a cop-out...
    - jseban 4y ago
      > it's doable with the right gear and clothing It's doable, but it's also the most time consuming and impractical way of transportation, compared to the other options, so therefor it's bad. Just because you can find a weird amish guys who insists that riding a horse is great, doesn't make that a good way of transportation, or something that we should start doing more.
      - piva00 4y ago
        > It's doable, but it's also the most time consuming and impractical way of transportation, compared to the other options, so therefor it's bad. My connection to the center of Stockholm takes 45-60 minutes counting the time to-from stations, I bike the same distance in about 40-45 minutes. I get some exercise, I get to bike to any street I want to in more-or-less the same amount of time. It's bad for you, so just swallow that as a personal opinion but don't come with sweeping statements that "it's therefore bad", this is totally subjective to one's level of discomfort and/or laziness. I prefer the bike than the great public transportation here for any trip where I won't be carrying more than what my cargo backpack can carry. I don't agree with the logic of your statement ("it's not perfect for me so therefore bad"), also coming after biking infrastructure is a very weird hill to die on...
        jseban 4y ago
        > this is totally subjective to one's level of discomfort and/or laziness. Being forced to do activities that are uncomfortable and strenuous = bad. The whole point of our society is to transcend this. There are a million ways to do exercise and sports, and to spend your life and time and energy. Just because someone doesn't like cycling like you, doesn't make them lazy. That's an unbelievably self centered and arrogant viewpoint. My logic is that cycling is bad because 1. it's not powerful and 2. it's sensitive to the weather, and 3. most people don't do it. Doesn't matter what you personally like.
- roenxi 4y ago
  > ...but biking is still popular, even in wind, rain and cold... The frame of the comment is quite vulnerable to survival biases though - if the transport has taken a step back from cars then the people who stopped travelling will not be visually observable. Although I do think car-first cities are a plague and it'd be better not to have them.
- rco8786 4y ago
  It’s the heat that is the problem. That’s why you’re only able to cite mild to cold cities as doing this successfully. It’s currently about 95F and humid every day where I live (mid-sized US city). I start sweating the moment I step outside. Add 10-15m worth of physical activity and I’m a disgusting smelly mess for the rest of the day. I hate that I live in a place that is car centric. But bike travel is not realistic here either even though most places I go to are easily within biking distance. We have to collectively realize that the competition we’re up against is a private, quiet, climate controlled box with a built-in entertainment system that takes you directly from point A to point B reliably and on demand. Oh and a nationwide set of infrastructure built to accommodate it. People will absolutely pay a premium (both in $ and time sitting in traffic) as a trade off for those features. Additionally an enormous chunk of the market does not believe (or at least believe enough to care) that it matters for the climate. Environmentalism as a selling point for public/bike transit will never be effective on ~50% of the market. The solution has to literally be better than cars in order to win. And cars have a lot going for them, to the point where most people have implicitly built their entire lives around the ubiquity of car availability. Transit advocates don’t seem to “get” this. We’re not asking people to change their mode of transit, we’re asking people to change their entire way of life for an alternative that they don’t believe (and may be right about) is better
  - sky-kedge0749 4y ago
    You could ride an electric scooter between two climate controlled garages for ten minutes or a couple miles without getting disgusting. In many U.S. urban areas the garages and scooters already exist, it's "just" a matter of setting aside dedicated lanes and popularizing it.
    - rco8786 4y ago
      I can, and do, use electric scooters reasonably often.
- andi999 4y ago
  Where do you see bicycles in Paris?
  - sofixa 4y ago
    Literally everywhere? Quais, bd Sébastopol, Grands Boulevards, Rivoli, Bastille are places you can barely cross due to the amount of bicycles. I've also biked and seen others on the Maréchaux, through all arrondissements. Same in the Petite Couronne suburbs, and i have friends living in faraway places that have well bike parkings at their train stations.
    - cafard 4y ago
      Concur. I remember sitting jet-lagged in a cafe at the Place Bastille watching all the cyclists go by. I was impressed by the guy who cycled with a phone to his ear, until I saw the woman with a phone to her ear and a cello on her back.
    - andi999 4y ago
      Three weeks ago I walked from Opera to Eiffel tower and while there were some cyclist it was only a few and nothing compared to like the netherlands.
p10jkle 4y ago
Why is it not practical for most business and personal purposes? I cycle to work (on an e-bike) every day and so do most people I know
- paganel 4y ago
  Too hot, or too cold, or too rainy. The Western European cities that are oftentimes given as positive examples (I’m thinking about Copenhagen and Amsterdam most) happen to be located in a temperate climate where it is almost never too cold, nor too hot, nor do you get pouring rain all that often.
  - ljf 4y ago
    If you think it isn't rainy in those locations... Amsterdam gets about 35 inches of rain a year vs 25 inches in London - plenty damp enough. Don't forget the canals often freeze up yearly or so in Amsterdam too, so it can be pretty cold there, and due to wet air feel pretty vile - but people still cycle as it is easy, fast and cheap.
    - paganel 4y ago
      No, it doesn't get rainy, rainy, you don't get half of the city flooded in just 30 or so minutes [1], most of the times it's just a drizzle that's manageable with a decent raincoat. [1] https://youtu.be/Ve-oExiwq_0?t=92 https://youtu.be/Ve-oExiwq_0?t=92
      - arghwhat 4y ago
        That's a strawman. Intense weather like a flooded city that would stop a car would of course stop a bike, but you're either stuck at home or stuck outside regardless of what you do. The only relevant weather is common weather you would have no issue with in a car (or would not allow you to do remote work that day). It should also be noted that many Europeans have cars but bike in medium to good weather. I take the car in hail or snow for example, but bike as much as a car otherwise as I physically and mentally feel better after biking, I reduce pollution and I save money. Wins all around.
TomSwirly 4y ago
Your unsubstantiated claim is, no surprise, false. A bike is perfectly practical for most business and personal purposes and I live in a city which demonstrates it. I do everything by bike, except when the weather is really bad or I'm going really far away, when I use public transportation.
czbond 4y ago
I see autonomous EV's as the public transit that could change everything...and not until then.

by blfr 4y ago

sofixa 4y ago

Bikes and electric scooters can very well supplement public transit, at least for the "last mile". Cities like Paris and Amsterdam have very good public transit, but biking is still popular, even in wind, rain and cold. People bike in freaking Oulu, Finland, even with the snow and cold. It's a perfectly viable supplement to good public transit.

codebolt 4y ago
As a northern European, I can confirm. The nearest train station is a 10 minute bike ride from my house. From there the rest of my commute is a breeze. If I was to drive I'd be stuck in traffic much longer. And it's nice to get some fresh air to start the day. Only problem is the few months of snow.
- rayiner 4y ago
  I believe you that your commute is fine but I think you don’t understand how much Americans love convenience. How do I work a McDonalds drive through into that trip? Can yon get bikes with cup holders for a 32 ounce beverage? Of course it’s not just Americans. I’ve got southern German friends who love the American car centric lifestyle.
jimbob45 4y ago
Sure, that works very well for European cities where moderate temperatures are the norm. For the heat of Texas, Arizona, Florida, and New Mexico? For the freezing temperatures in Minnesota, Alaska, and North Dakota? You would quickly die. Furthermore, our cities are simply bigger and more spread out. You’ll counter by saying we need denser, more walkable cities even though we obviously can’t just tear down our cities and start from scratch.
- piva00 4y ago
  I bike all year long in Sweden, it's doable with the right gear and clothing. And I'm not even originally from a cold country, I'm Brazilian, living here for 7 years and used to bike in the heat of Brazil as well. This is a cop-out...
  - jseban 4y ago
    > it's doable with the right gear and clothing It's doable, but it's also the most time consuming and impractical way of transportation, compared to the other options, so therefor it's bad. Just because you can find a weird amish guys who insists that riding a horse is great, doesn't make that a good way of transportation, or something that we should start doing more.
    - piva00 4y ago
      > It's doable, but it's also the most time consuming and impractical way of transportation, compared to the other options, so therefor it's bad. My connection to the center of Stockholm takes 45-60 minutes counting the time to-from stations, I bike the same distance in about 40-45 minutes. I get some exercise, I get to bike to any street I want to in more-or-less the same amount of time. It's bad for you, so just swallow that as a personal opinion but don't come with sweeping statements that "it's therefore bad", this is totally subjective to one's level of discomfort and/or laziness. I prefer the bike than the great public transportation here for any trip where I won't be carrying more than what my cargo backpack can carry. I don't agree with the logic of your statement ("it's not perfect for me so therefore bad"), also coming after biking infrastructure is a very weird hill to die on...
      - jseban 4y ago
        > this is totally subjective to one's level of discomfort and/or laziness. Being forced to do activities that are uncomfortable and strenuous = bad. The whole point of our society is to transcend this. There are a million ways to do exercise and sports, and to spend your life and time and energy. Just because someone doesn't like cycling like you, doesn't make them lazy. That's an unbelievably self centered and arrogant viewpoint. My logic is that cycling is bad because 1. it's not powerful and 2. it's sensitive to the weather, and 3. most people don't do it. Doesn't matter what you personally like.
roenxi 4y ago
> ...but biking is still popular, even in wind, rain and cold... The frame of the comment is quite vulnerable to survival biases though - if the transport has taken a step back from cars then the people who stopped travelling will not be visually observable. Although I do think car-first cities are a plague and it'd be better not to have them.
rco8786 4y ago
It’s the heat that is the problem. That’s why you’re only able to cite mild to cold cities as doing this successfully. It’s currently about 95F and humid every day where I live (mid-sized US city). I start sweating the moment I step outside. Add 10-15m worth of physical activity and I’m a disgusting smelly mess for the rest of the day. I hate that I live in a place that is car centric. But bike travel is not realistic here either even though most places I go to are easily within biking distance. We have to collectively realize that the competition we’re up against is a private, quiet, climate controlled box with a built-in entertainment system that takes you directly from point A to point B reliably and on demand. Oh and a nationwide set of infrastructure built to accommodate it. People will absolutely pay a premium (both in $ and time sitting in traffic) as a trade off for those features. Additionally an enormous chunk of the market does not believe (or at least believe enough to care) that it matters for the climate. Environmentalism as a selling point for public/bike transit will never be effective on ~50% of the market. The solution has to literally be better than cars in order to win. And cars have a lot going for them, to the point where most people have implicitly built their entire lives around the ubiquity of car availability. Transit advocates don’t seem to “get” this. We’re not asking people to change their mode of transit, we’re asking people to change their entire way of life for an alternative that they don’t believe (and may be right about) is better
- sky-kedge0749 4y ago
  You could ride an electric scooter between two climate controlled garages for ten minutes or a couple miles without getting disgusting. In many U.S. urban areas the garages and scooters already exist, it's "just" a matter of setting aside dedicated lanes and popularizing it.
  - rco8786 4y ago
    I can, and do, use electric scooters reasonably often.
andi999 4y ago
Where do you see bicycles in Paris?
- sofixa 4y ago
  Literally everywhere? Quais, bd Sébastopol, Grands Boulevards, Rivoli, Bastille are places you can barely cross due to the amount of bicycles. I've also biked and seen others on the Maréchaux, through all arrondissements. Same in the Petite Couronne suburbs, and i have friends living in faraway places that have well bike parkings at their train stations.
  - cafard 4y ago
    Concur. I remember sitting jet-lagged in a cafe at the Place Bastille watching all the cyclists go by. I was impressed by the guy who cycled with a phone to his ear, until I saw the woman with a phone to her ear and a cello on her back.
  - andi999 4y ago
    Three weeks ago I walked from Opera to Eiffel tower and while there were some cyclist it was only a few and nothing compared to like the netherlands.

p10jkle 4y ago

Why is it not practical for most business and personal purposes? I cycle to work (on an e-bike) every day and so do most people I know

paganel 4y ago
Too hot, or too cold, or too rainy. The Western European cities that are oftentimes given as positive examples (I’m thinking about Copenhagen and Amsterdam most) happen to be located in a temperate climate where it is almost never too cold, nor too hot, nor do you get pouring rain all that often.
- ljf 4y ago
  If you think it isn't rainy in those locations... Amsterdam gets about 35 inches of rain a year vs 25 inches in London - plenty damp enough. Don't forget the canals often freeze up yearly or so in Amsterdam too, so it can be pretty cold there, and due to wet air feel pretty vile - but people still cycle as it is easy, fast and cheap.
  - paganel 4y ago
    No, it doesn't get rainy, rainy, you don't get half of the city flooded in just 30 or so minutes [1], most of the times it's just a drizzle that's manageable with a decent raincoat. [1] https://youtu.be/Ve-oExiwq_0?t=92 https://youtu.be/Ve-oExiwq_0?t=92
    - arghwhat 4y ago
      That's a strawman. Intense weather like a flooded city that would stop a car would of course stop a bike, but you're either stuck at home or stuck outside regardless of what you do. The only relevant weather is common weather you would have no issue with in a car (or would not allow you to do remote work that day). It should also be noted that many Europeans have cars but bike in medium to good weather. I take the car in hail or snow for example, but bike as much as a car otherwise as I physically and mentally feel better after biking, I reduce pollution and I save money. Wins all around.

TomSwirly 4y ago

Your unsubstantiated claim is, no surprise, false. A bike is perfectly practical for most business and personal purposes and I live in a city which demonstrates it. I do everything by bike, except when the weather is really bad or I'm going really far away, when I use public transportation.

czbond 4y ago

I see autonomous EV's as the public transit that could change everything...and not until then.