4 ms·

I think your comment is very out of context. For one, it's not even debatable that US had a big network of spies going in and out of the ussr. So, even if thos

by gtsop 4y ago

I think your comment is very out of context. For one, it's not even debatable that US had a big network of spies going in and out of the ussr. So, even if those specific musicians weren't spies, there were tons of spies nevertheless, thus the soviets had every motive to search thoroughly. Second, the chances of these musicians not being spies is extremely low, we're talking of an anti-ussr operation during a period when us-ussr tensions were high. A simple civilian doesn't "just travel to an opressesed country to exchange intel against the state using steganography techniques". I'm not saying there are 0 chances they are plain civilians, I'm just saying the chances are very low

pvg 4y ago
Second, the chances of these musicians not being spies is extremely low, we're talking of an anti-ussr operation So there is no evidence. It's as absurd to call these people spies as it is to call Soviet dissidents and refuseniks of the time spies or western agents or mentally ill - that was the framing of the regime. It's absurd to take it up 40 years later. These were people who wanted to leave and other people who wanted to help them, not an 'anti-soviet operation'. A central premise of a great deal of late-Soviet resistance was essentially scrupulous adherence to Soviet law and international commitments the Soviets themselves made but did not, in practice, adhere to at all.
- MockObject 4y ago
  > These were people who wanted to leave and other people who wanted to help them, not an 'anti-soviet operation' Wasn't it both? It was certainly against Soviet policy and interests. What else could anti-Soviet even mean?
  - pvg 4y ago
    Because they called everything they didn't like 'anti-Soviet'. 'What does Soviet (or Socialist or whatever) actually mean?' was precisely the question this kind dissident activity was intended to raise. There was nothing 'inherently' anti-Soviet in simply wanting to live somewhere else or not suffer anti-semitic discrimination. The Soviet constitution ostensibly guaranteed all sorts of freedoms, etc. This gives you the flavour of it, in Czechoslovakia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_77 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_77 Describing this stuff in the language and framing of a totalitarian regime (or Cold War Bond movies where everyone is a spy) is bonkers.
    - MockObject 4y ago
      It's not bonkers at all. Presumably the Kremlin didn't want the brain drain, and labor drain, of these folks leaving. Surely you can agree that it was in the Soviet state interest to retain its slaves for exploitation?
      - pvg 4y ago
        It's bonkers to use that terminology. The Soviet government called this stuff 'anti-Soviet', pretended they didn't oppress and discriminate, put healthy dissidents in mental hospitals as if they were crazy, labeled everyone a spy, etc. None of these things were true. We don't use, I dunno, Nazi terms to talk about the people who ended up in concentration camps. The musicians who tried to help regular Soviet citizens emigrate were not spies infiltrating the Soviet union for an 'anti-Soviet operation'. It is very much bananas verbiage.
        MockObject 4y ago
        I'm still not seeing what's bonkers. The point of contention between you and the Kremlin isn't who's on what side, but which side is good and which, evil. But that's not encoded in "pro-" or "anti-". You don't think the dissidents would be proud to consider themselves, and their activities, anti-Soviet? Would they correct us, and insist that they were actually being pro-Soviet?

by gtsop 4y ago

pvg 4y ago

Second, the chances of these musicians not being spies is extremely low, we're talking of an anti-ussr operation So there is no evidence. It's as absurd to call these people spies as it is to call Soviet dissidents and refuseniks of the time spies or western agents or mentally ill - that was the framing of the regime. It's absurd to take it up 40 years later. These were people who wanted to leave and other people who wanted to help them, not an 'anti-soviet operation'. A central premise of a great deal of late-Soviet resistance was essentially scrupulous adherence to Soviet law and international commitments the Soviets themselves made but did not, in practice, adhere to at all.

MockObject 4y ago
> These were people who wanted to leave and other people who wanted to help them, not an 'anti-soviet operation' Wasn't it both? It was certainly against Soviet policy and interests. What else could anti-Soviet even mean?
- pvg 4y ago
  Because they called everything they didn't like 'anti-Soviet'. 'What does Soviet (or Socialist or whatever) actually mean?' was precisely the question this kind dissident activity was intended to raise. There was nothing 'inherently' anti-Soviet in simply wanting to live somewhere else or not suffer anti-semitic discrimination. The Soviet constitution ostensibly guaranteed all sorts of freedoms, etc. This gives you the flavour of it, in Czechoslovakia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_77 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_77 Describing this stuff in the language and framing of a totalitarian regime (or Cold War Bond movies where everyone is a spy) is bonkers.
  - MockObject 4y ago
    It's not bonkers at all. Presumably the Kremlin didn't want the brain drain, and labor drain, of these folks leaving. Surely you can agree that it was in the Soviet state interest to retain its slaves for exploitation?
    - pvg 4y ago
      It's bonkers to use that terminology. The Soviet government called this stuff 'anti-Soviet', pretended they didn't oppress and discriminate, put healthy dissidents in mental hospitals as if they were crazy, labeled everyone a spy, etc. None of these things were true. We don't use, I dunno, Nazi terms to talk about the people who ended up in concentration camps. The musicians who tried to help regular Soviet citizens emigrate were not spies infiltrating the Soviet union for an 'anti-Soviet operation'. It is very much bananas verbiage.
      - MockObject 4y ago
        I'm still not seeing what's bonkers. The point of contention between you and the Kremlin isn't who's on what side, but which side is good and which, evil. But that's not encoded in "pro-" or "anti-". You don't think the dissidents would be proud to consider themselves, and their activities, anti-Soviet? Would they correct us, and insist that they were actually being pro-Soviet?