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I agree, but I’ve personally never been able to disentangle the legalization Vs addiction and prison argument: Legalization = less users being incarcerated (pr

by _uy6i 4y ago

I agree, but I’ve personally never been able to disentangle the legalization Vs addiction and prison argument: Legalization = less users being incarcerated (probably a good thing) There is a high correlation between violent crime and substance abuse (legal and illegal Drugs) so legalization likely increases substance abuse and hence violent crime. The system is so complex that the implications of legalization on the “model” are just not clear to me

spacemanmatt 4y ago
It's less complex than some would have you believe.
- _uy6i 4y ago
  Unless you think drug use and substance abuse would go down as result of legalization, I don’t know how you can make that assertion
  - spacemanmatt 4y ago
    I think net harm would go down and personal liberty would go up as a result of legalization.
rendall 4y ago
I disagree that legalization would likely increase violent crime. Consider the Mexican drug cartels, who maintain their grip on power and resources specifically because of the high profits caused by the high risk of trafficking illegal drugs. These are extremely violent criminals with lots of political and economic power, and they have murdered over 60000 people since 2006. It's hard to imagine that even large numbers of simple abusers of even the hardest, most risky drugs would be able to pull off such a holocaust in even the worst case.
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  Prison is a much larger epidemic and prison will always be worse than addiction. Most addictions heal on their own within a few years. We shouldn't be grinding people into the system just for getting sick.
  - _uy6i 4y ago
    I agree that prison truly is an epidemic, and think putting people in prison for the purchase or possession of personal quantities of drugs is unreasonably cruel
- _uy6i 4y ago
  I think the this actually the best argument for some form of legalization, but given the amount of crime committed by drug users/abusers (not including drug trade related crime) the number in the US is comparable. If people who use/abuse drugs only say on their couch and ate Doritos fine. But they cause (fatal) car crashes, violently rob and assault people, abuse their spouses and children, and commit homicide. If ~1/3rd of offenses are committed under the influence that implies ~5k murders a year or ~78k since 2006 (admittedly I have no idea how many of those murders would have happened if the person was sober, but it’s worth noting the magnitude) https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime
  - rendall 4y ago
    Not sure. I think sticking to the inalienable principle that people can do what they want with their own bodies would resolve a lot of this. It's hard to say what proportion of violence stems directly from the fact that drugs are illegal versus just being high. If resources now directed to prosecuting drug traffickers and users could instead be redirected from law enforcement to treatment, counseling, education I suspect this would resolve. As far as I know, every locality that decriminalized experienced a drop in drug-related violent crime.
alphabettsy 4y ago
It’s my belief that the violent crime associated with drugs is in large part because of prohibition, the same as the violent crime associated with alcohol when it was illegal. People under the influence will continue to make bad decisions but they’ll no longer need to be vigilantes to solve disputes.
- _uy6i 4y ago
  There are three types of violent crime associated with drugs, 1) crime to obtain money for a drug habit, 2) crime as result of the drug trade, 3) crime while under the influence (dwi/traffic fatalities, assaults, etc) You are referring to #2 not #1 or #3 https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime
  - trs8080 4y ago
    The statistics on the linked page do not distinguish between those three categories. Where are you getting data that #1 and #3 are significant drivers of violent crime associated with drugs? I would also be careful here because those stats are pulled from the UCR, which is far from a complete or reliable source of data.
    - balderdash 4y ago
      #1 literally the first full sentence of text “In 2004, 17% of state prisoners and 18% of federal inmates said they committed their current offense to obtain money for drugs.” #3…you might have to read past the first sentence…

by _uy6i 4y ago

spacemanmatt 4y ago

It's less complex than some would have you believe.

_uy6i 4y ago
Unless you think drug use and substance abuse would go down as result of legalization, I don’t know how you can make that assertion
- spacemanmatt 4y ago
  I think net harm would go down and personal liberty would go up as a result of legalization.

rendall 4y ago

I disagree that legalization would likely increase violent crime. Consider the Mexican drug cartels, who maintain their grip on power and resources specifically because of the high profits caused by the high risk of trafficking illegal drugs. These are extremely violent criminals with lots of political and economic power, and they have murdered over 60000 people since 2006. It's hard to imagine that even large numbers of simple abusers of even the hardest, most risky drugs would be able to pull off such a holocaust in even the worst case.

spacemanmatt 4y ago
Prison is a much larger epidemic and prison will always be worse than addiction. Most addictions heal on their own within a few years. We shouldn't be grinding people into the system just for getting sick.
- _uy6i 4y ago
  I agree that prison truly is an epidemic, and think putting people in prison for the purchase or possession of personal quantities of drugs is unreasonably cruel
_uy6i 4y ago
I think the this actually the best argument for some form of legalization, but given the amount of crime committed by drug users/abusers (not including drug trade related crime) the number in the US is comparable. If people who use/abuse drugs only say on their couch and ate Doritos fine. But they cause (fatal) car crashes, violently rob and assault people, abuse their spouses and children, and commit homicide. If ~1/3rd of offenses are committed under the influence that implies ~5k murders a year or ~78k since 2006 (admittedly I have no idea how many of those murders would have happened if the person was sober, but it’s worth noting the magnitude) https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime
- rendall 4y ago
  Not sure. I think sticking to the inalienable principle that people can do what they want with their own bodies would resolve a lot of this. It's hard to say what proportion of violence stems directly from the fact that drugs are illegal versus just being high. If resources now directed to prosecuting drug traffickers and users could instead be redirected from law enforcement to treatment, counseling, education I suspect this would resolve. As far as I know, every locality that decriminalized experienced a drop in drug-related violent crime.

alphabettsy 4y ago

It’s my belief that the violent crime associated with drugs is in large part because of prohibition, the same as the violent crime associated with alcohol when it was illegal. People under the influence will continue to make bad decisions but they’ll no longer need to be vigilantes to solve disputes.

_uy6i 4y ago
There are three types of violent crime associated with drugs, 1) crime to obtain money for a drug habit, 2) crime as result of the drug trade, 3) crime while under the influence (dwi/traffic fatalities, assaults, etc) You are referring to #2 not #1 or #3 https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime
- trs8080 4y ago
  The statistics on the linked page do not distinguish between those three categories. Where are you getting data that #1 and #3 are significant drivers of violent crime associated with drugs? I would also be careful here because those stats are pulled from the UCR, which is far from a complete or reliable source of data.
  - balderdash 4y ago
    #1 literally the first full sentence of text “In 2004, 17% of state prisoners and 18% of federal inmates said they committed their current offense to obtain money for drugs.” #3…you might have to read past the first sentence…