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>Whether we are more than computers is almost a religious question (I believe yes, but I can't prove it). This is actually not true and can logically be shown.

>Whether we are more than computers is almost a religious question (I believe yes, but I can't prove it). This is actually not true and can logically be shown. We can model atoms with computation. Thus if all matter including the brain is made up of atoms then it can be simulated via a math equation.

cs137 4y ago
We can't perfectly model a physical system (a quantum system, at some level) with classical computing. We'd need a quantum computer, and we still don't know what are the limitations on our ability to build one (the quantum computers currently being built are not at nearly the level we'd need for this sort of analysis). The idea that we understand what physical matter really is, how it works, whether it can produce qualia, et al, is simply off the mark. Of course most physical systems can be reasoned about macroscopically and are relatively deterministic--we can understand how computers work because the functionality is almost entirely classical--and we know that quantum mechanics is both mathematically and experimentally valid, but we not at all gotten to the bottom of this. In fact, one can argue that physics as we understand it can't be used to explain qualia. Physics requires symmetries (translational, rotational, spacetime) and asserts that there is no "privileged" reference frame that defines, say, the "objective" origin or x-, y-, z-axes. If you have two pure kilogram spheres of iron--of course, nothing macroscopic is actually 100.00% pure in practice, but it is physically conceivable and possible--they are exactly the same. One is a perfect substitute for (or copy of) the other. Consciousness likely violates this. We believe (although, without proof) that a perfect physical copy of a person would harbor a separate consciousness and that they would in fact diverge. This suggests that consciousness is a product not of the physical state--structural equality--but is driven by something more like pointer equality. The question is what it's "pointing" from. And, of course, we have no idea; we can't even prove that this is the case.
- deltaonefour 4y ago
  >We can't perfectly model a physical system (a quantum system, at some level) with classical computing. We'd need a quantum computer, No we don't. The probability wave can be simulated. Decoherence cannot be simulated unless we have a true random number generator. But this is a simulation. We can perfectly simulate, but not perfectly recreate. In fact even with entropy for random number generation derived directly from quantum foam you cannot deterministically recreate the behavior of any atom. You can only "simulate." because the nature of the math equation involves randomness and perfectly imitating randomness involves luck. >The question is what it's "pointing" from. And, of course, we have no idea; we can't even prove that this is the case. Your statement is also highly unlikely. It's like saying the universe was created by a turtle. You can't prove or disprove it. But it can still be considered absurd. >One is a perfect substitute for (or copy of) the other. Consciousness likely violates this. We believe (although, without proof) that a perfect physical copy of a person would harbor a separate consciousness and that they would in fact diverge. The word consciousness is loaded, poorly defined and complicated. It is a language phenomenon that tricks people into thinking consciousness is some profound concept. It is not. It is simply a series of thousands of attributes related to intelligence such that if you have all the attributes you are conscious if you are missing one attribute, you are not conscious and nobody fully agrees on what all these attributes are. That's it. So they argue about it thinking it's some philosophical debate when they're really just arguing about vocabulary and trying to map out the definition of a loaded word. It's a big trick. A copy of consciousness would be like a copy of a computer. There's nothing magical about it. Would the copy of a computer behave exactly identical to the original? Maybe not "exactly" but they would be similar... but there is nothing profound about that. You're getting hung up on the pointer. So if I copy a computer will the "pointer" suddenly be confused? No. It won't be because there is no "pointer" to a computer just like consciousness is NOT a pointer. It's actually shows bias the fact that you have this notion of a pointer. Think about it. If I copy a rock what happens to the pointer of the rock? When I copy a printout what happens to the pointer to that printout? Why does consciousness arbitrarily out of nowhere suddenly have a possibility of a pointer? What is it that makes you think this unprovable concept of a pointer applies just to consciousness but you don't really think about it for other mundane forms copying? It's bias for the word "consciousness" likely caused by the "big trick" I talked about above. You are a physical being you are not a pointer pointing to a physical being... the brain and your soul are one in the same thing. This makes sense because this is how we assume all OTHER things in the universe work. There's no pointer pointing to them so why is there suddenly a pointer to consciousness? You said it's unprovable, but to even entertain this possibility is like entertaining the possibility the universe was created by a turtle. Possible... but unprovable.

cs137 4y ago

We can't perfectly model a physical system (a quantum system, at some level) with classical computing. We'd need a quantum computer, and we still don't know what are the limitations on our ability to build one (the quantum computers currently being built are not at nearly the level we'd need for this sort of analysis). The idea that we understand what physical matter really is, how it works, whether it can produce qualia, et al, is simply off the mark. Of course most physical systems can be reasoned about macroscopically and are relatively deterministic--we can understand how computers work because the functionality is almost entirely classical--and we know that quantum mechanics is both mathematically and experimentally valid, but we not at all gotten to the bottom of this. In fact, one can argue that physics as we understand it can't be used to explain qualia. Physics requires symmetries (translational, rotational, spacetime) and asserts that there is no "privileged" reference frame that defines, say, the "objective" origin or x-, y-, z-axes. If you have two pure kilogram spheres of iron--of course, nothing macroscopic is actually 100.00% pure in practice, but it is physically conceivable and possible--they are exactly the same. One is a perfect substitute for (or copy of) the other. Consciousness likely violates this. We believe (although, without proof) that a perfect physical copy of a person would harbor a separate consciousness and that they would in fact diverge. This suggests that consciousness is a product not of the physical state--structural equality--but is driven by something more like pointer equality. The question is what it's "pointing" from. And, of course, we have no idea; we can't even prove that this is the case.

deltaonefour 4y ago
>We can't perfectly model a physical system (a quantum system, at some level) with classical computing. We'd need a quantum computer, No we don't. The probability wave can be simulated. Decoherence cannot be simulated unless we have a true random number generator. But this is a simulation. We can perfectly simulate, but not perfectly recreate. In fact even with entropy for random number generation derived directly from quantum foam you cannot deterministically recreate the behavior of any atom. You can only "simulate." because the nature of the math equation involves randomness and perfectly imitating randomness involves luck. >The question is what it's "pointing" from. And, of course, we have no idea; we can't even prove that this is the case. Your statement is also highly unlikely. It's like saying the universe was created by a turtle. You can't prove or disprove it. But it can still be considered absurd. >One is a perfect substitute for (or copy of) the other. Consciousness likely violates this. We believe (although, without proof) that a perfect physical copy of a person would harbor a separate consciousness and that they would in fact diverge. The word consciousness is loaded, poorly defined and complicated. It is a language phenomenon that tricks people into thinking consciousness is some profound concept. It is not. It is simply a series of thousands of attributes related to intelligence such that if you have all the attributes you are conscious if you are missing one attribute, you are not conscious and nobody fully agrees on what all these attributes are. That's it. So they argue about it thinking it's some philosophical debate when they're really just arguing about vocabulary and trying to map out the definition of a loaded word. It's a big trick. A copy of consciousness would be like a copy of a computer. There's nothing magical about it. Would the copy of a computer behave exactly identical to the original? Maybe not "exactly" but they would be similar... but there is nothing profound about that. You're getting hung up on the pointer. So if I copy a computer will the "pointer" suddenly be confused? No. It won't be because there is no "pointer" to a computer just like consciousness is NOT a pointer. It's actually shows bias the fact that you have this notion of a pointer. Think about it. If I copy a rock what happens to the pointer of the rock? When I copy a printout what happens to the pointer to that printout? Why does consciousness arbitrarily out of nowhere suddenly have a possibility of a pointer? What is it that makes you think this unprovable concept of a pointer applies just to consciousness but you don't really think about it for other mundane forms copying? It's bias for the word "consciousness" likely caused by the "big trick" I talked about above. You are a physical being you are not a pointer pointing to a physical being... the brain and your soul are one in the same thing. This makes sense because this is how we assume all OTHER things in the universe work. There's no pointer pointing to them so why is there suddenly a pointer to consciousness? You said it's unprovable, but to even entertain this possibility is like entertaining the possibility the universe was created by a turtle. Possible... but unprovable.