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European pension funds attack Toyota for not going ‘all in’ on electric cars

13 points by cwwc 4y ago

cjbenedikt 4y ago
Pension fund managers should stick to what they (pretend) to understand: investments. Electric cars have a ton of environmental issues - Lithium mining and related water consumption and CO2 release to name but a few. Toyota should be hailed for sticking to hydrogen instead.
- natch 4y ago
  Hydrogen is corrosive, dangerous, and inefficient. It is not an energy source. There are much better existing storage mechanisms. It burns with an invisible flame in daylight, further adding to the dangers already posed by leaks, fires, and explosions. Hydrogen cars in California cannot take road trips out of the state because there is no place for them to fill up in many other states. There have been at least two recent major explosion incidents involving hydrogen tanker trucks in California. One of which was kept somewhat under the public’s radar as a truck incident by spinning it as an incident at a hydrogen facility, which is true, but misleading imho. I've seen hydrogen cars at filling stations that were brought there by tow trucks. Hydrogen cars are so expensive the manufacturers have to heavily subsidize them. I'm not sure they even sell them; I think they are all leased. Hydrogen is so difficult to deal with, people who produce it might even have to give it away in some places, depending on location, because nobody wants to deal with it. Toyota has been out of step on this, and they are still faking out customers imho by using the term "electrified" which usually means hybrid, but fools people into thinking they are talking about BEVs.
  - charles_kaw 4y ago
    The Japanese government, in step with their private industry, created a self fulfilling prophecy through an internal campaign painting hydrogen as the future. Their insistence on hydrogen makes a lot more sense when you consider that Japanese politicians have been making big promises around the technology in the domestic market. Oops, lol.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > I've seen hydrogen cars at filling stations that were brought there by tow trucks. Here's a Tesla brought to a Tesla charger on a tow truck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue2Gs9hRr8k&t=260s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue2Gs9hRr8k&t=260s So Tesla must be doomed, right?
    - natch 4y ago
      By your logic I guess you think electrical outlets and EV chargers are as rare as hydrogen vehicle refueling stations. So… no.
      - clouddrover 4y ago
        So you're saying Tesla has more charging stations than there are hydrogen fuel stations and Teslas still need tow trucks?! Wow, you've convinced me. Tesla must be super doomed.
  - missedthecue 4y ago
    Lithium batteries aren't an energy source either. This isn't a comment for or against either system but it's an odd criticism.
    - natch 4y ago
      There’s no need to take it as a criticism although I can see how in certain contexts you might. Here it’s meant just as a flat fact. I suppose the op was even aware of it, but if you don’t spell everything out on HN then commenters who miss the main point will jump in and object. I guess you can’t win either way though.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- paranoidrobot 4y ago
  > Pension fund managers should stick to what they (pretend) to understand: investments. Says you. Personally I'd like to see more of this. Perhaps it's less profitable than just going for the highest immediate ROI and who cares about the impact on the wider world. More fair pay & conditions, less exploiting workers. More supporting local communities where they operate, less profit-shifting/tax-avoidance. More caring about environmental impact, less polluting. I think a lower ROI is worth it if we can achieve these things.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    I'm fine if private funds do this (though I don't think investors are smart enough to judge everything), but not fine for pension fund. It's not your money and customers have no choice.
clouddrover 4y ago
Toyota is in the car business. Toyota is "all in" on making and selling cars. Toyota sells more cars than anyone: https://global.toyota/en/company/profile/production-sales-figures/202112.html https://global.toyota/en/company/profile/production-sales-fi... https://www.motor1.com/news/563816/toyota-beats-vag-2021-sales/ https://www.motor1.com/news/563816/toyota-beats-vag-2021-sal...
- charles_kaw 4y ago
  Yes, but incoming regulation is going to make selling gasoline cars increasingly difficult. That includes Europe, especially. If Toyota is in the business of selling cars, they're going to have problems when large swaths of the population are incentivized to buy electric cars, and Toyota has a limited selection. So, these pension funds are probably right to be worried that Toyota has dropped the ball on this.
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    But Toyota hasn't dropped the ball as the sales figures demonstrate. Toyota probably has timed it right: https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/14/22833997/toyota-ev-investment-lexus-concept-vehicles https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/14/22833997/toyota-ev-inves...
    - charles_kaw 4y ago
      Toyota's battery manufacturing capabilities are extremely behind the curve. There will likely be a few years where they are unable to make nearly enough to meet demand. That is why a lot of investors are unhappy.
  - toast0 4y ago
    If the only reason selling gasoline cars is difficult is regulations, it makes sense to sell as many as you can before the regulations make it hard. And to try to make sure you didn't make too many that you can't legally sell in the intended market. Economically, it probably makes sense to try to push back on the regulations too. Seperate from that, you do want to be prepared to switch to what you can legally sell. But there's no reason to ramp up producing a less desirable good before the mandate comes into force. (Of course, you could argue about EVs being more or less desirable... but that's a different argument than saying you should switch before the mandate; I personally think the addressable market is clearly smaller with EVs vs gas powered too; also, I think hydrogen cars are clearly worse than natural gas cars, and natural gas cars didn't survive in the US market, so I don't think hydrogen cars are a good investment, but that's not really the claim either)
olliej 4y ago
People still need gas cars, most of the world cannot afford electric cars, and certainly lacks the infrastructure. Whether or not you want electric cars, Toyota going "all in" on electric would imply throwing out cast amounts of revenue for decades - I thought the goal of a pension fund is to ensure that people have pensions?
- Jxl180 4y ago
  Used cars will always be an option, and there will be a time when the standard used car on the market is an EV. > I thought the goal of a pension fund is to ensure that people have pensions? Yes, through an investment portfolio, and this article states that the 4 pension funds in question have a combined $300 million in shares invested in Toyota. The article says: ‘Toyota is jeopardising its valuable brand by lobbying against much-needed climate related regulation of the auto industry,” said Anders Schelde, AkademikerPension’s chief investment officer last week. “What is the science based argument for their position, which is what we expect from companies if they are going against most expert views on the role of battery electric vehicles and the required timeline for phaseout of fossil fuel cars.’
  - breadloaf 4y ago
    Used BEVs with depleted battery which might not be produced anymore. Toyota is fully aware that BEV does not have longevity, which is actual core of their brand and that's main reason why they are tiptoeing around BEV
Proven 4y ago
unmole 4y ago
I guess pension funds don't have any fiduciary responsibility to their members?

13 points by cwwc 4y ago

Pension fund managers should stick to what they (pretend) to understand: investments. Electric cars have a ton of environmental issues - Lithium mining and related water consumption and CO2 release to name but a few. Toyota should be hailed for sticking to hydrogen instead.

natch 4y ago
Hydrogen is corrosive, dangerous, and inefficient. It is not an energy source. There are much better existing storage mechanisms. It burns with an invisible flame in daylight, further adding to the dangers already posed by leaks, fires, and explosions. Hydrogen cars in California cannot take road trips out of the state because there is no place for them to fill up in many other states. There have been at least two recent major explosion incidents involving hydrogen tanker trucks in California. One of which was kept somewhat under the public’s radar as a truck incident by spinning it as an incident at a hydrogen facility, which is true, but misleading imho. I've seen hydrogen cars at filling stations that were brought there by tow trucks. Hydrogen cars are so expensive the manufacturers have to heavily subsidize them. I'm not sure they even sell them; I think they are all leased. Hydrogen is so difficult to deal with, people who produce it might even have to give it away in some places, depending on location, because nobody wants to deal with it. Toyota has been out of step on this, and they are still faking out customers imho by using the term "electrified" which usually means hybrid, but fools people into thinking they are talking about BEVs.
- charles_kaw 4y ago
  The Japanese government, in step with their private industry, created a self fulfilling prophecy through an internal campaign painting hydrogen as the future. Their insistence on hydrogen makes a lot more sense when you consider that Japanese politicians have been making big promises around the technology in the domestic market. Oops, lol.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > I've seen hydrogen cars at filling stations that were brought there by tow trucks. Here's a Tesla brought to a Tesla charger on a tow truck: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue2Gs9hRr8k&t=260s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue2Gs9hRr8k&t=260s So Tesla must be doomed, right?
  - natch 4y ago
    By your logic I guess you think electrical outlets and EV chargers are as rare as hydrogen vehicle refueling stations. So… no.
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      So you're saying Tesla has more charging stations than there are hydrogen fuel stations and Teslas still need tow trucks?! Wow, you've convinced me. Tesla must be super doomed.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  Lithium batteries aren't an energy source either. This isn't a comment for or against either system but it's an odd criticism.
  - natch 4y ago
    There’s no need to take it as a criticism although I can see how in certain contexts you might. Here it’s meant just as a flat fact. I suppose the op was even aware of it, but if you don’t spell everything out on HN then commenters who miss the main point will jump in and object. I guess you can’t win either way though.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
paranoidrobot 4y ago
> Pension fund managers should stick to what they (pretend) to understand: investments. Says you. Personally I'd like to see more of this. Perhaps it's less profitable than just going for the highest immediate ROI and who cares about the impact on the wider world. More fair pay & conditions, less exploiting workers. More supporting local communities where they operate, less profit-shifting/tax-avoidance. More caring about environmental impact, less polluting. I think a lower ROI is worth it if we can achieve these things.
- fomine3 4y ago
  I'm fine if private funds do this (though I don't think investors are smart enough to judge everything), but not fine for pension fund. It's not your money and customers have no choice.

clouddrover 4y ago

Toyota is in the car business. Toyota is "all in" on making and selling cars. Toyota sells more cars than anyone: https://global.toyota/en/company/profile/production-sales-figures/202112.html https://global.toyota/en/company/profile/production-sales-fi... https://www.motor1.com/news/563816/toyota-beats-vag-2021-sales/ https://www.motor1.com/news/563816/toyota-beats-vag-2021-sal...

charles_kaw 4y ago
Yes, but incoming regulation is going to make selling gasoline cars increasingly difficult. That includes Europe, especially. If Toyota is in the business of selling cars, they're going to have problems when large swaths of the population are incentivized to buy electric cars, and Toyota has a limited selection. So, these pension funds are probably right to be worried that Toyota has dropped the ball on this.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  But Toyota hasn't dropped the ball as the sales figures demonstrate. Toyota probably has timed it right: https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/14/22833997/toyota-ev-investment-lexus-concept-vehicles https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/14/22833997/toyota-ev-inves...
  - charles_kaw 4y ago
    Toyota's battery manufacturing capabilities are extremely behind the curve. There will likely be a few years where they are unable to make nearly enough to meet demand. That is why a lot of investors are unhappy.
- toast0 4y ago
  If the only reason selling gasoline cars is difficult is regulations, it makes sense to sell as many as you can before the regulations make it hard. And to try to make sure you didn't make too many that you can't legally sell in the intended market. Economically, it probably makes sense to try to push back on the regulations too. Seperate from that, you do want to be prepared to switch to what you can legally sell. But there's no reason to ramp up producing a less desirable good before the mandate comes into force. (Of course, you could argue about EVs being more or less desirable... but that's a different argument than saying you should switch before the mandate; I personally think the addressable market is clearly smaller with EVs vs gas powered too; also, I think hydrogen cars are clearly worse than natural gas cars, and natural gas cars didn't survive in the US market, so I don't think hydrogen cars are a good investment, but that's not really the claim either)

olliej 4y ago

People still need gas cars, most of the world cannot afford electric cars, and certainly lacks the infrastructure. Whether or not you want electric cars, Toyota going "all in" on electric would imply throwing out cast amounts of revenue for decades - I thought the goal of a pension fund is to ensure that people have pensions?

Jxl180 4y ago
Used cars will always be an option, and there will be a time when the standard used car on the market is an EV. > I thought the goal of a pension fund is to ensure that people have pensions? Yes, through an investment portfolio, and this article states that the 4 pension funds in question have a combined $300 million in shares invested in Toyota. The article says: ‘Toyota is jeopardising its valuable brand by lobbying against much-needed climate related regulation of the auto industry,” said Anders Schelde, AkademikerPension’s chief investment officer last week. “What is the science based argument for their position, which is what we expect from companies if they are going against most expert views on the role of battery electric vehicles and the required timeline for phaseout of fossil fuel cars.’
- breadloaf 4y ago
  Used BEVs with depleted battery which might not be produced anymore. Toyota is fully aware that BEV does not have longevity, which is actual core of their brand and that's main reason why they are tiptoeing around BEV

Proven 4y ago

unmole 4y ago

I guess pension funds don't have any fiduciary responsibility to their members?