7 ms·

Am I the only person who thinks this article is silly? "...but many of the regulations that come down the pipeline are pushed by brick-and-mortar competitors w

by gexla 15y ago

Am I the only person who thinks this article is silly? "...but many of the regulations that come down the pipeline are pushed by brick-and-mortar competitors who want to keep competition at a minimum." Or perhaps the brick-and-mortar competitors simply want for the competition to be on even ground. If the kids were required jump through the same hoops as the legit stands, then the kids likely need to sell lemonade at higher prices than a quarter. "Police said the girls needed a business license, a peddler’s permit, and a food permit to operate the stand, which cost $50 per day or $180 per year each, sums that would quickly cut into any possible profit-margin." Correct. These fees cut into profit margins for all stands. Why should kids get special treatment? "Who stands to lose from a couple of six-year-olds selling lemonade?" Any purchase I make at one stand is a lost opportunity for another stand. Again, why should kids receive special treatment? "Kids have been selling lemonade for decades without permits of any sort. They often set the stands up just for fun, but many lemonade stands (or bake sales) are used to raise money for schools, cancer, or sick pets. Lemonade stands represent the most innocent, optimistic side of capitalism out there." Lemonade stands for kids is a great learning experience. Having to deal with the law is part of that learning experience. A lemonade stand run by kids and shut down by the police is as good a learning experience as one that is able to run without interference from the government. If the startup costs of a lemonade stand are too high, then perhaps the kids should try a different line of business.

kiba 15y ago
Programmers are not licensed to program. So, it's unfair that other jobs need license. We should also make programmers go through the licensing process! Look, just because brick and mortar pay fees doesn't mean it's also justified for them to impose it on their competition. Maybe the fee or the law are unjust. Just get rid of them and let them run their business.
- gexla 15y ago
  Sure, maybe the kids should offer a colonoscopy (they're kids! why should they need a license for that?) service for 50 cents rather than lemonade. This is a ridiculous example, but the license / permit scheme is probably in place for good reasons. I don't know what those reasons are in this case, but I imagine it's to keep the event from being overrun by vendors.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    If you think preparing lemonade is at all comparable to preforming colonoscopies, I fear you have a rather disturbing idea of what lemonade is.
    - Klinky 15y ago
      The germ level on some kids hands might have you thinking they were doing colonoscopies instead of making lemonade...
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        If you don't like it, don't drink it. Stop expecting society to parent you.
        Klinky 15y ago
        Couldn't the same argument be made to parents expecting society to waive permit requirements? Stop expecting society to parent for you...
  - rwmj 15y ago
    This is a ridiculous thing to say. No one would go to a kid for a colonoscopy, and if they were stupid enough then they deserve what they get. Common sense says that adults should be licensed for dangerous operations because the customer can't tell by looking if an adult is trained to do the operation or not. You can tell a kid is not a doctor simply by looking. Back to lemonade stands: use your common sense. If kids are running it and you don't trust kids' hygiene or ability to make lemonade or whatever, don't buy the lemonade. There is no possible reason why a license is required.
    - gexla 15y ago
      Right, you are repeating what I had already admitted, that my example is ridiculous. My response was to the suggestion that we should get rid of licenses and just let people run their businesses. In some cases, this is fine (and in these cases you probably don't need a license, programming is an example of this.) In other cases, not so much. I'm thankful for the U.S. being strict on food safety / handling standards. I'm currently living in the Philippines and I had traveler's diarrhea for the first few months I lived here and I still get it regularly after a few years. Common sense helps, but it only goes so far.
- Klinky 15y ago
  Often certification, degrees or display of skill is required to get a programming job. Setting up a stand in your front yard requires no such requirements & the business relies on short-term transactions that probably don't let potential customers gauge the quality of your business. Food permits & vendor licensing fees are there for a reason. Go look up your local county health departments food inspection results for local food vendors. You'll be surprised at some of the joints that are barely staying within the food safety guidelines. As far as kids go, they are definitely not infallible when it come to food safety. I saw friends running stands as a child & they were reusing cups, diluting the product & I am not sure if they ever washed their hands.
chrisbennet 15y ago
>Correct. These fees cut into profit margins for all stands. Why should kids get special treatment? Um, because on earth at least, it's a common practice, even encouraged to give kids special treatment. You don't need a fishing license until you're 16, "kids ride free", etc. They'll have plenty of time to become the kind of bitter adult who will think "being shut down by the police is a good learning experience" later.
- anothermachine 15y ago
  Both of your examples are cases where kids are riding "free" because they are tagging along with dues-paying adults.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > Both of your examples are cases where kids are riding "free" because they are tagging along with dues-paying adults. Nope. Plenty of kids fish by themselves. In fact, most kid fishing used to be with other kids or alone, with no adults, and I'd be somewhat surprised if that had changed.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    It is my impression that when I was a child, I was allowed to fish alone by myself.. and often did.
icebraining 15y ago
I think the permits should be proportional to the sales volume and/or income. Fixed values only crush small businesses for the advantage of large corporations.
- anothermachine 15y ago
  That causes other problems, like overhead and privacy invasions required to determine the fee. Better to have a cliff: * When you are obviously under some minimum, regulation does not apply. * When you appear to be near the cliff or over, the regulation applies (or you have to do the paperwork to show that the regulation does not apply). This practice works well for many regulations, including most business regulations with small-business exemptions, Alternative Minimum Tax, checking ID for buying alcohol, etc.
RandallBrown 15y ago
Why should kids get special treatment? Because they're kids! Are children even legally allowed to apply for these permits? If a parent does it, is it even legal for their 7 year old kid to work at the stand? How is threatening a child with fines a good learning experience? All it will do is crush their spirit.
- krookoo 15y ago
  You're effectively proposing child labor.
  - trebor 15y ago
    He isn't. Children in America today have no requirement to work for their survival. If a child wants to work for a bigger allowance, why not let them?
  - protomyth 15y ago
    working for themselves and no other for their own or a charities benefit
  - anamax 15y ago
    > You're effectively proposing child labor. So? What do you have against kids earning money? Or, is it that they shouldn't do any work? Lots of kids mow their parent's lawns and take out the trash. Is that wrong? If not, why is it wrong if they do it for someone else?
Firebrand 15y ago
Well, at least kids will learn some history on how it was like to operate a speakeasy and avoiding/bribing law enforcement.
jakeonthemove 15y ago
Dear God, man! You think it's a good idea to have 4 year olds deal with the screwed up machine-like law system we have in place? Let them have at least some liberty and dreams before they turn 16 and start getting arrested and thinking of anarchy or suicide... oh wait, that was a sarcastic comment, wasn't it?
- anothermachine 15y ago
  4 year olds buying flats from Costco and setting up a concession stand at a fair? This isn't kids playing and having a good time at home, this is running an apparently legitimate business, which should be run actually legitimately.
  - burgerbrain 15y ago
    If that is the case we should congratulate them, not sic men with guns on them. What is wrong with people?
    - anigbrowl 15y ago
      Just give them guns of their own, that'll make everything work out.
      - burgerbrain 15y ago
        I have no idea what point you think you might be making.
michaeldhopkins 15y ago
This is terribly sad and I'm sorry for your family and your neighbors. You have somehow trained yourself to see your locality through the abstractions used by organizations that reside elsewhere. Instead of seeing the child, the water, the table, the lemons and the sugar you see an indistinguishable member of a data set called "street vendors" or "foodservice" or "business establishments." Ironically the ability to use one's senses to observe one's surroundings helps one to create better laws, so your interest in regulating lemonade stands helps in a small way (as you only vote and talk to people) to create poorer regulation.
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  Instead of seeing the child, the water, the table, the lemons and the sugar http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2011/08/lemonadestand.jpg http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2011/08/lemona... Strangely enough, I'm not seeing them either. Edit: that's the picture Forbes used to illustrate the article. It's not my fault it doesn't match up with the described ideal.
  - michaeldhopkins 15y ago
    I meant the actual lemonade stands he encounters, but good point.
tremendo 15y ago
> Any purchase I make at one stand is a lost opportunity for another stand. Really? You find a kids' lemonade stand in your neighborhood and find yourself thinking: a) "Man! I really want to drive out of my neighborhood and buy from stranger kids but this stand right here makes it terribly inconvenient for me". Or more like b) "look how cute, I'll plunk down a quarter to really inspire my neighborhood kids' entrepeneur spirit!". Your purchase was never an opportunity for another stand. I hope you don't seriously think you can legislate opportunity. > why should kids receive special treatment? Is it so hard to see? It's a calculated risk, a trade-off. You can spend a few cents here and now, maybe even spill the lemonade around the corner, but helped some young minds dream that they can one day make the whole of society richer by being wealth creators. Society's risk? a bad tasting lemonade? It's all upside, no downside. Why should kids not follow food regulations? good question. Why should anyone? I don't want to go to that rabbit hole, but it's easy to see how a little protection here, and a little there, leads to more rules for regulations' sake. We have so many laws no grown-up can keep up, not even lawyers, and to me it's clearly unreasonable to think that a child could or even would.

by gexla 15y ago

kiba 15y ago

Programmers are not licensed to program. So, it's unfair that other jobs need license. We should also make programmers go through the licensing process! Look, just because brick and mortar pay fees doesn't mean it's also justified for them to impose it on their competition. Maybe the fee or the law are unjust. Just get rid of them and let them run their business.

gexla 15y ago
Sure, maybe the kids should offer a colonoscopy (they're kids! why should they need a license for that?) service for 50 cents rather than lemonade. This is a ridiculous example, but the license / permit scheme is probably in place for good reasons. I don't know what those reasons are in this case, but I imagine it's to keep the event from being overrun by vendors.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  If you think preparing lemonade is at all comparable to preforming colonoscopies, I fear you have a rather disturbing idea of what lemonade is.
  - Klinky 15y ago
    The germ level on some kids hands might have you thinking they were doing colonoscopies instead of making lemonade...
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      If you don't like it, don't drink it. Stop expecting society to parent you.
      - Klinky 15y ago
        Couldn't the same argument be made to parents expecting society to waive permit requirements? Stop expecting society to parent for you...
- rwmj 15y ago
  This is a ridiculous thing to say. No one would go to a kid for a colonoscopy, and if they were stupid enough then they deserve what they get. Common sense says that adults should be licensed for dangerous operations because the customer can't tell by looking if an adult is trained to do the operation or not. You can tell a kid is not a doctor simply by looking. Back to lemonade stands: use your common sense. If kids are running it and you don't trust kids' hygiene or ability to make lemonade or whatever, don't buy the lemonade. There is no possible reason why a license is required.
  - gexla 15y ago
    Right, you are repeating what I had already admitted, that my example is ridiculous. My response was to the suggestion that we should get rid of licenses and just let people run their businesses. In some cases, this is fine (and in these cases you probably don't need a license, programming is an example of this.) In other cases, not so much. I'm thankful for the U.S. being strict on food safety / handling standards. I'm currently living in the Philippines and I had traveler's diarrhea for the first few months I lived here and I still get it regularly after a few years. Common sense helps, but it only goes so far.
Klinky 15y ago
Often certification, degrees or display of skill is required to get a programming job. Setting up a stand in your front yard requires no such requirements & the business relies on short-term transactions that probably don't let potential customers gauge the quality of your business. Food permits & vendor licensing fees are there for a reason. Go look up your local county health departments food inspection results for local food vendors. You'll be surprised at some of the joints that are barely staying within the food safety guidelines. As far as kids go, they are definitely not infallible when it come to food safety. I saw friends running stands as a child & they were reusing cups, diluting the product & I am not sure if they ever washed their hands.

chrisbennet 15y ago

>Correct. These fees cut into profit margins for all stands. Why should kids get special treatment? Um, because on earth at least, it's a common practice, even encouraged to give kids special treatment. You don't need a fishing license until you're 16, "kids ride free", etc. They'll have plenty of time to become the kind of bitter adult who will think "being shut down by the police is a good learning experience" later.

anothermachine 15y ago
Both of your examples are cases where kids are riding "free" because they are tagging along with dues-paying adults.
- anamax 15y ago
  > Both of your examples are cases where kids are riding "free" because they are tagging along with dues-paying adults. Nope. Plenty of kids fish by themselves. In fact, most kid fishing used to be with other kids or alone, with no adults, and I'd be somewhat surprised if that had changed.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  It is my impression that when I was a child, I was allowed to fish alone by myself.. and often did.

icebraining 15y ago

I think the permits should be proportional to the sales volume and/or income. Fixed values only crush small businesses for the advantage of large corporations.

anothermachine 15y ago
That causes other problems, like overhead and privacy invasions required to determine the fee. Better to have a cliff: * When you are obviously under some minimum, regulation does not apply. * When you appear to be near the cliff or over, the regulation applies (or you have to do the paperwork to show that the regulation does not apply). This practice works well for many regulations, including most business regulations with small-business exemptions, Alternative Minimum Tax, checking ID for buying alcohol, etc.

RandallBrown 15y ago

Why should kids get special treatment? Because they're kids! Are children even legally allowed to apply for these permits? If a parent does it, is it even legal for their 7 year old kid to work at the stand? How is threatening a child with fines a good learning experience? All it will do is crush their spirit.

krookoo 15y ago
You're effectively proposing child labor.
- trebor 15y ago
  He isn't. Children in America today have no requirement to work for their survival. If a child wants to work for a bigger allowance, why not let them?
- protomyth 15y ago
  working for themselves and no other for their own or a charities benefit
- anamax 15y ago
  > You're effectively proposing child labor. So? What do you have against kids earning money? Or, is it that they shouldn't do any work? Lots of kids mow their parent's lawns and take out the trash. Is that wrong? If not, why is it wrong if they do it for someone else?

Firebrand 15y ago

Well, at least kids will learn some history on how it was like to operate a speakeasy and avoiding/bribing law enforcement.

jakeonthemove 15y ago

Dear God, man! You think it's a good idea to have 4 year olds deal with the screwed up machine-like law system we have in place? Let them have at least some liberty and dreams before they turn 16 and start getting arrested and thinking of anarchy or suicide... oh wait, that was a sarcastic comment, wasn't it?

anothermachine 15y ago
4 year olds buying flats from Costco and setting up a concession stand at a fair? This isn't kids playing and having a good time at home, this is running an apparently legitimate business, which should be run actually legitimately.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  If that is the case we should congratulate them, not sic men with guns on them. What is wrong with people?
  - anigbrowl 15y ago
    Just give them guns of their own, that'll make everything work out.
    - burgerbrain 15y ago
      I have no idea what point you think you might be making.

michaeldhopkins 15y ago

This is terribly sad and I'm sorry for your family and your neighbors. You have somehow trained yourself to see your locality through the abstractions used by organizations that reside elsewhere. Instead of seeing the child, the water, the table, the lemons and the sugar you see an indistinguishable member of a data set called "street vendors" or "foodservice" or "business establishments." Ironically the ability to use one's senses to observe one's surroundings helps one to create better laws, so your interest in regulating lemonade stands helps in a small way (as you only vote and talk to people) to create poorer regulation.

anigbrowl 15y ago
Instead of seeing the child, the water, the table, the lemons and the sugar http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2011/08/lemonadestand.jpg http://blogs-images.forbes.com/erikkain/files/2011/08/lemona... Strangely enough, I'm not seeing them either. Edit: that's the picture Forbes used to illustrate the article. It's not my fault it doesn't match up with the described ideal.
- michaeldhopkins 15y ago
  I meant the actual lemonade stands he encounters, but good point.

tremendo 15y ago

> Any purchase I make at one stand is a lost opportunity for another stand. Really? You find a kids' lemonade stand in your neighborhood and find yourself thinking: a) "Man! I really want to drive out of my neighborhood and buy from stranger kids but this stand right here makes it terribly inconvenient for me". Or more like b) "look how cute, I'll plunk down a quarter to really inspire my neighborhood kids' entrepeneur spirit!". Your purchase was never an opportunity for another stand. I hope you don't seriously think you can legislate opportunity. > why should kids receive special treatment? Is it so hard to see? It's a calculated risk, a trade-off. You can spend a few cents here and now, maybe even spill the lemonade around the corner, but helped some young minds dream that they can one day make the whole of society richer by being wealth creators. Society's risk? a bad tasting lemonade? It's all upside, no downside. Why should kids not follow food regulations? good question. Why should anyone? I don't want to go to that rabbit hole, but it's easy to see how a little protection here, and a little there, leads to more rules for regulations' sake. We have so many laws no grown-up can keep up, not even lawyers, and to me it's clearly unreasonable to think that a child could or even would.