6 ms·

> airspace pollution Bit of a fake concern, no? >potential small airplane crashing down in a city Is that really much worse than a SUV driving into a buildin

by prvit 4y ago

> airspace pollution Bit of a fake concern, no? >potential small airplane crashing down in a city Is that really much worse than a SUV driving into a building?

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> Is that really much worse than a SUV driving into a building? Yes
- SapporoChris 4y ago
  Think of it this way. If an SUV drives into your building you can sue and make some money. But if some really rich person crashes their flying gizmo into your building you can sue and make a lot of money!
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    So, are you saying that you think that the worst that happens in car crashes is "someone could sue"? please don't waste our time.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I can't sue if I've been incinerated by an uncontrolled lithium battery fire.
    - voldacar 4y ago
      Neither could you sue if you had been struck and killed by an SUV. The end state of your reasoning is that nobody can ever do anything that involves risk because someone might die and be unable to sue. Sounds like an awful world
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Emphasis on "killed." I don't want to be struck by an SUV, but one hitting my apartment at ordinary NYC residential street speeds (at least, pre-COVID) is less likely to kill me than a plane crash. Risk is a community exercise. You don't (or rather, shouldn't) get to externalize disproportionate risks upon the commons because it makes your life easier. (An example of such a consideration: what happens when the fire department shows up? They know how to deal with a car accident; are they going to have the presence of mind not to douse a vehicle that looks like a normal personal aircraft in water?)
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        prvit 4y ago
        >but one hitting my apartment at ordinary NYC residential street speeds Why ordinary speeds? Someone driving into a building is likely to be going significantly faster, perhaps because they confused the brake pedal and accelerator. Things like this happen all the time https://twitter.com/TempePolice/status/1529914550266368000 https://twitter.com/TempePolice/status/1529914550266368000
        Deritio 4y ago
        You have only that much of momentum from ground in comparison to something already in the air and just falling down. We currently have a billion cars on the road. Of course we have plenty of accidents. But that's not a valid comparison. And perhaps we should also get rid of carsnow your argument is totally invalid
    - hef19898 4y ago
      With more and more SUVs and truck beimg EVs that doesn't change much. Well, eVTOLs will burn longer, not that it matters because a large SUV will burn long enough to not matter to you. And I'd bet a lot more on the crash safety of aerospace cerrified batteries than those of the automotive sector.
      - teachrdan 4y ago
        > And I'd bet a lot more on the crash safety of aerospace cerrified batteries than those of the automotive sector. Why? Aircraft are optimized for weight far more than automobiles. Making airplane batteries safer than car batteries would make them even less energy dense than they already are. Add to that fact that cars have a crumple zone built into them, while an airplane AFAIK does not -- at least not one that matters when it crashes into my house at 100mph. Furthermore, some Tesla crashing on the freeway on the way to Tahoe is unlikely to start a forest fire. But what about some rich yahoo making the same trip while flying their personal electric plane who crashes in the Oakland hills? These problems are non trivial particularly because every personal electric plane company wants to scale into the millions.
- prvit 4y ago
  Why? You’d expect there to be far more people at the street level than on top floors. And in any case, even if such accidents would be worse, they’d also be vast less common. It’s more difficult to fuck things up in the air, and the level of training required to operate an aircraft is far higher than the level of training required to operate a SUV. Drivers famously can’t even keep track of which pedal is the brake and which is the throttle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration
  - bradknowles 4y ago
    So, terminal velocity of a relatively aerodynamic shape (like a bullet falling, or a skydiver who is head down and pulled their arms in) is about 200mph, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity How many SUVs do you know of that are crashing into houses at 200mph? Also, what is the relative mass of the electric airplane with a bunch of lithium batteries, versus the SUV? What parts of the house might be hit by a falling airplane, versus an SUV crashing into the house from the road? What is the fire risk of a bunch of lithium batteries having fallen out of the sky, versus the SUV crashing into the house? There's lots of factors to be considered here, but overall I'd say there's a lot more risk of damage, injury, and death with the falling electric airplane than with the SUV.
    - prvit 4y ago
      Why focus on houses? SUVs drive into ground level shops and restaurants every single day. Places which tend to exists at ground level for accessibility reasons, and contain much more people than your average house. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-station-store-ditches-suv-and-runs-away https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into-burbank-storefront-after-two-car-crash/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into... https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-village-premium-outlets-car-suv-into-nike-store-crash-injuries-may-20-2022 https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-v... https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing-into-store-hitting-florida-man-on-beer-run/2709708/ https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing... https://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-hospitalized-car-plows-dc-restaurant-lunchtime-police/story?id=83394597 https://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-hospitalized-car-plows-dc-res... https://www.gainsberglaw.com/blog/cars-crash-into-buildings-more-often-than-you-might-think/ https://www.gainsberglaw.com/blog/cars-crash-into-buildings-... I could find thousands of these. An airplane falling from the sky is far less likely to hit anyone than a car suddenly accelerating into a store because the driver is flooring the accelerator instead of the brake. These incidents are so common that they have an extensive wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration You can find some numbers at https://www.storefrontsafety.org/statistics.html https://www.storefrontsafety.org/statistics.html They claim this happens around 60 times a day.
Deritio 4y ago
Yes it is. A SUV rarly crashes into a building and when it does, it's often possible that humans die. An airtaxi crashes down from a hight and speed. They will crash into and through your roof or into a street or directly into humans. Airspace pollution is not a fake concern. Why would we allow one company to fly over my head and another not? Either it is so niche that it doesn't add any benefit to our society or it becomes so normal that air space pollution is a real issue. I'm very very happy when I look into an empty/nearly empty sky. This is a valid concern.
- prvit 4y ago
  > Yes it is. A SUV rarly crashes into a building and when it does, it's often possible that humans die. This is something that happens on a daily basis. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-station-store-ditches-suv-and-runs-away https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into-burbank-storefront-after-two-car-crash/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into... https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-village-premium-outlets-car-suv-into-nike-store-crash-injuries-may-20-2022 https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-v... https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing-into-store-hitting-florida-man-on-beer-run/2709708/ https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing... The NHTSA estimates that there are 16000 crashes per year in the US caused by drivers confusing the brake and accelerator pedals. A huge chunk of these do end up with the vehicle inside a building. https://web.archive.org/web/20161226060428/https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-safety-advisory-reducing-crashes-caused-pedal-error https://web.archive.org/web/20161226060428/https://www.nhtsa... > An airtaxi crashes down from a hight and speed. They will crash into and through your roof or into a street or directly into humans. The odds of a SUV driving into humans is far greater than the odds of a falling airtaxi hitting anyone. SUVs end up inside stores every single day because of unintended acceleration on parking lots. > Why would we allow one company to fly over my head and another not? What does that even mean? >Either it is so niche that it doesn't add any benefit to our society or it becomes so normal that air space pollution is a real issue. The “airspace” is very big 3D space that can simultaneously accommodate thousands of flights over a city before congestion becomes an issue.

by prvit 4y ago

> airspace pollution Bit of a fake concern, no? >potential small airplane crashing down in a city Is that really much worse than a SUV driving into a building?

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

> Is that really much worse than a SUV driving into a building? Yes

SapporoChris 4y ago
Think of it this way. If an SUV drives into your building you can sue and make some money. But if some really rich person crashes their flying gizmo into your building you can sue and make a lot of money!
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  So, are you saying that you think that the worst that happens in car crashes is "someone could sue"? please don't waste our time.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I can't sue if I've been incinerated by an uncontrolled lithium battery fire.
  - voldacar 4y ago
    Neither could you sue if you had been struck and killed by an SUV. The end state of your reasoning is that nobody can ever do anything that involves risk because someone might die and be unable to sue. Sounds like an awful world
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Emphasis on "killed." I don't want to be struck by an SUV, but one hitting my apartment at ordinary NYC residential street speeds (at least, pre-COVID) is less likely to kill me than a plane crash. Risk is a community exercise. You don't (or rather, shouldn't) get to externalize disproportionate risks upon the commons because it makes your life easier. (An example of such a consideration: what happens when the fire department shows up? They know how to deal with a car accident; are they going to have the presence of mind not to douse a vehicle that looks like a normal personal aircraft in water?)
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - prvit 4y ago
        >but one hitting my apartment at ordinary NYC residential street speeds Why ordinary speeds? Someone driving into a building is likely to be going significantly faster, perhaps because they confused the brake pedal and accelerator. Things like this happen all the time https://twitter.com/TempePolice/status/1529914550266368000 https://twitter.com/TempePolice/status/1529914550266368000
        Deritio 4y ago
        You have only that much of momentum from ground in comparison to something already in the air and just falling down. We currently have a billion cars on the road. Of course we have plenty of accidents. But that's not a valid comparison. And perhaps we should also get rid of carsnow your argument is totally invalid
  - hef19898 4y ago
    With more and more SUVs and truck beimg EVs that doesn't change much. Well, eVTOLs will burn longer, not that it matters because a large SUV will burn long enough to not matter to you. And I'd bet a lot more on the crash safety of aerospace cerrified batteries than those of the automotive sector.
    - teachrdan 4y ago
      > And I'd bet a lot more on the crash safety of aerospace cerrified batteries than those of the automotive sector. Why? Aircraft are optimized for weight far more than automobiles. Making airplane batteries safer than car batteries would make them even less energy dense than they already are. Add to that fact that cars have a crumple zone built into them, while an airplane AFAIK does not -- at least not one that matters when it crashes into my house at 100mph. Furthermore, some Tesla crashing on the freeway on the way to Tahoe is unlikely to start a forest fire. But what about some rich yahoo making the same trip while flying their personal electric plane who crashes in the Oakland hills? These problems are non trivial particularly because every personal electric plane company wants to scale into the millions.
prvit 4y ago
Why? You’d expect there to be far more people at the street level than on top floors. And in any case, even if such accidents would be worse, they’d also be vast less common. It’s more difficult to fuck things up in the air, and the level of training required to operate an aircraft is far higher than the level of training required to operate a SUV. Drivers famously can’t even keep track of which pedal is the brake and which is the throttle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration
- bradknowles 4y ago
  So, terminal velocity of a relatively aerodynamic shape (like a bullet falling, or a skydiver who is head down and pulled their arms in) is about 200mph, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity How many SUVs do you know of that are crashing into houses at 200mph? Also, what is the relative mass of the electric airplane with a bunch of lithium batteries, versus the SUV? What parts of the house might be hit by a falling airplane, versus an SUV crashing into the house from the road? What is the fire risk of a bunch of lithium batteries having fallen out of the sky, versus the SUV crashing into the house? There's lots of factors to be considered here, but overall I'd say there's a lot more risk of damage, injury, and death with the falling electric airplane than with the SUV.
  - prvit 4y ago
    Why focus on houses? SUVs drive into ground level shops and restaurants every single day. Places which tend to exists at ground level for accessibility reasons, and contain much more people than your average house. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-station-store-ditches-suv-and-runs-away https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into-burbank-storefront-after-two-car-crash/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into... https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-village-premium-outlets-car-suv-into-nike-store-crash-injuries-may-20-2022 https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-v... https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing-into-store-hitting-florida-man-on-beer-run/2709708/ https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing... https://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-hospitalized-car-plows-dc-restaurant-lunchtime-police/story?id=83394597 https://abcnews.go.com/US/dead-hospitalized-car-plows-dc-res... https://www.gainsberglaw.com/blog/cars-crash-into-buildings-more-often-than-you-might-think/ https://www.gainsberglaw.com/blog/cars-crash-into-buildings-... I could find thousands of these. An airplane falling from the sky is far less likely to hit anyone than a car suddenly accelerating into a store because the driver is flooring the accelerator instead of the brake. These incidents are so common that they have an extensive wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_unintended_acceleration You can find some numbers at https://www.storefrontsafety.org/statistics.html https://www.storefrontsafety.org/statistics.html They claim this happens around 60 times a day.

Deritio 4y ago

Yes it is. A SUV rarly crashes into a building and when it does, it's often possible that humans die. An airtaxi crashes down from a hight and speed. They will crash into and through your roof or into a street or directly into humans. Airspace pollution is not a fake concern. Why would we allow one company to fly over my head and another not? Either it is so niche that it doesn't add any benefit to our society or it becomes so normal that air space pollution is a real issue. I'm very very happy when I look into an empty/nearly empty sky. This is a valid concern.

prvit 4y ago
> Yes it is. A SUV rarly crashes into a building and when it does, it's often possible that humans die. This is something that happens on a daily basis. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-station-store-ditches-suv-and-runs-away https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/driver-crashes-through-gas-... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/car-into-kohls https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into-burbank-storefront-after-two-car-crash/ https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/vehicle-careens-into... https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-village-premium-outlets-car-suv-into-nike-store-crash-injuries-may-20-2022 https://turnto10.com/amp/news/local/massachusetts-wrentham-v... https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing-into-store-hitting-florida-man-on-beer-run/2709708/ https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/video-shows-suv-crashing... The NHTSA estimates that there are 16000 crashes per year in the US caused by drivers confusing the brake and accelerator pedals. A huge chunk of these do end up with the vehicle inside a building. https://web.archive.org/web/20161226060428/https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-safety-advisory-reducing-crashes-caused-pedal-error https://web.archive.org/web/20161226060428/https://www.nhtsa... > An airtaxi crashes down from a hight and speed. They will crash into and through your roof or into a street or directly into humans. The odds of a SUV driving into humans is far greater than the odds of a falling airtaxi hitting anyone. SUVs end up inside stores every single day because of unintended acceleration on parking lots. > Why would we allow one company to fly over my head and another not? What does that even mean? >Either it is so niche that it doesn't add any benefit to our society or it becomes so normal that air space pollution is a real issue. The “airspace” is very big 3D space that can simultaneously accommodate thousands of flights over a city before congestion becomes an issue.