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>If you work at a place like that, I feel sorry for you. I came to the comments to express the same sort of opinion. I work at a place that understands and va

by cbs 15y ago

>If you work at a place like that, I feel sorry for you. I came to the comments to express the same sort of opinion. I work at a place that understands and values programmers. I can't imagine working in any other kind of environment unless I was between real jobs and really strapped for cash. If you're at a place run by a bunch of clueless MBAs that don't understand the value of their in-house engineers you just don't have a good (or reliable) job.

maaku 15y ago
Are those MBA's clueless? Programmers are costs, and expensive ones at that. We start off underwater on the value proposition. Saying "I'm a programmer" is saying "I'm a large, fixed cost." The question for the businessman is always: what value do you add, and does it exceed your costs? Yes, there's value for an in-house engineering team, but with widely varying skill distributions and unevenly matched compensation. Managers know this, and Patrick's point is that "I'm a programmer" is starting off on the wrong foot as it just re-affirms that you are a large, fixed cost, saying nothing about your specific contributions.
- anthonyb 15y ago
  The value of programmers tends not be linear with cost though. Paying an extra 25-50% for decent ones gets you at least a 2x improvement, possibly more if they can rewrite large chunks of your corporate code to improve it.
  - maaku 15y ago
    That's precisely my point. The question in the businessman's head is "are you one of the decent ones? are we getting our money's worth?"
    - anthonyb 15y ago
      Yes, and it should be, but the answer, unfortunately, is that they typically have no idea who is a good programmer and who isn't, so they only end up hiring cheap programmers. In other words - yes, they are clueless.
mseebach 15y ago
> If you're at a place run by a bunch of clueless MBAs that don't understand the value of their in-house engineers you just don't have a good (or reliable) job. That is exactly Patricks point. If you can explain to those MBAs how you make $N for the company, then your job (as long as your job costs less than $N) is safe because you're now a profit centre. You will then have turned those clueless MBAs into bosses who understands and values programmers.

by cbs 15y ago

maaku 15y ago

Are those MBA's clueless? Programmers are costs, and expensive ones at that. We start off underwater on the value proposition. Saying "I'm a programmer" is saying "I'm a large, fixed cost." The question for the businessman is always: what value do you add, and does it exceed your costs? Yes, there's value for an in-house engineering team, but with widely varying skill distributions and unevenly matched compensation. Managers know this, and Patrick's point is that "I'm a programmer" is starting off on the wrong foot as it just re-affirms that you are a large, fixed cost, saying nothing about your specific contributions.

anthonyb 15y ago
The value of programmers tends not be linear with cost though. Paying an extra 25-50% for decent ones gets you at least a 2x improvement, possibly more if they can rewrite large chunks of your corporate code to improve it.
- maaku 15y ago
  That's precisely my point. The question in the businessman's head is "are you one of the decent ones? are we getting our money's worth?"
  - anthonyb 15y ago
    Yes, and it should be, but the answer, unfortunately, is that they typically have no idea who is a good programmer and who isn't, so they only end up hiring cheap programmers. In other words - yes, they are clueless.

mseebach 15y ago

> If you're at a place run by a bunch of clueless MBAs that don't understand the value of their in-house engineers you just don't have a good (or reliable) job. That is exactly Patricks point. If you can explain to those MBAs how you make $N for the company, then your job (as long as your job costs less than $N) is safe because you're now a profit centre. You will then have turned those clueless MBAs into bosses who understands and values programmers.