4 ms·

There are no self-made millionaires. I'm from a poor family and got pretty wealthy. Yet I'm under no illusion that this was "self-made". No one of us is "self-

by esarbe 4y ago

There are no self-made millionaires. I'm from a poor family and got pretty wealthy. Yet I'm under no illusion that this was "self-made". No one of us is "self-made". We all depend on a society around us that gives us a language, concepts, knowledge and stability to accumulate wealth. We depend on foundations that have been built by others, on resources extracted by others, on work done by others. "Self-made" is just a comfortable blanket to pretend that it was our hard work alone that made us rich. In reality it's only very, very much luck that allows to to prosper while others are destitute. The "self-made millionaire" is a capitalistic myth that glorifies exploitation of others. Don't fall for it.

credit_guy 4y ago
That's some real deep philosophical insight there ... It does not matter how much you work, in the end you don't deserve the fruits of your labor, because of course, there is no such thing as fruits of you labor. It's the fruits of the society around us.
- esarbe 4y ago
  > It's the fruits of the society around us. That's a given. Still, Society needs a way to incentivize people. Some way of encouraging people to be entrepreneurial, curious, industrious and active, to reach beyond what is immediately possible, work on their strengths and on supporting each other to grow in their own.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
It's a poor lens through which view the world. In the same way there are no criminals or good or bad people. Sure, I don't believe in free will either, but from a practical point of view, you should probably give some credit to millionaires who made it without getting money from anyone. And you should give even more credit to millionaires who made it starting with a poor family. Similarly I won't trust criminals as much as non criminals, even if I'm sure they could have been different if their lives had different circumstances. Of course we're lucky to live in the richest society ever created in history which gives us opportunities our ancestors didn't have. You can thank capitalism for that. I feel good about my economic success (almost 1M with just contracting and a failed startup behind). Sure, I'm thankful that my family could afford a computer when I was a kid but nobody really encouraged me to follow this route or gave me any money. My teenage years were all fighting with my parents to stay more on the computer and work while they wanted me to study. And everyone kept telling me there was no money in software development.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  I like to remind myself that had I been born just about anywhere else in the world, I wouldn’t be as fortunate as I am. At least not financially. I’m not a millionaire, but I earn more than almost everyone I know. It’s a matter of where I was born, when, hobbies I fell into, etc. I mean, I grew up poor as hell, undiagnosed ADHD, the whole deal. I was dealt a pretty bad hand, but placed somewhere with so much opportunity that it worked out despite that. You can frame it a lot of ways. Yes I worked hard, I tried to do my best (and still do!), I just don’t feel self made. Having said that, I wouldn’t argue that you aren’t self made. You certainly didn’t have everything handed to you, and I’m sure you’re a hard and smart worker. If anything I’m just cognizant of the person I easily could have been, or the life I could have had, were a few variables to change very slightly. Being born before/away from computers would have been a disaster for my career potential, I think.
  - esarbe 4y ago
    I'm in a very similar situation. > Being born before/away from computers would have been a disaster for my career potential, I think. Oh, yes.
- esarbe 4y ago
  > In the same way there are no criminals or good or bad people. I'm not arguing that no one bears the moral responsibility for their actions or that there are no laws to determine who's a criminal. > Sure, I don't believe in free will either, I didn't make any statements about determinism. > Of course we're lucky to live in the richest society ever created in history which gives us opportunities our ancestors didn't have. You can thank capitalism for that. > Sure, I'm thankful that my family could afford a computer when I was a kid but nobody really encouraged me to follow this route or gave me any money. It's been pretty much the same for me. I think the main point I'm trying to convey is; hard work is not enough. Many people work hard all their live and don't get anything other than a body broken by destitution. Hard work is not the point of the "self-made" millionaire; luck is.
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
refurb 4y ago
If no one is self-made then why do most wealthy people (who didn’t inherit) seem to work so hard?
- clcaev 4y ago
  Because they are insistent on making sure you know they worked hard: it's part if the role.
- blitzar 4y ago
  > If no one is self-made then why do most wealthy people (who didn’t inherit) seem to work so hard? You should go see how the other half live. There are many people out there working way harder than any of the billionaires on the hardest working billionaire list who can barely put a meal on the table. There are also many people out there working just as hard and making a paltry 60k a year.
  - refurb 4y ago
    That’s like saying “living a health lifestyle doesn’t stop cancer because my friend lived very health and died of cancer at 40”
    - notahacker 4y ago
      It's like saying "living a healthy lifestyle doesn't stop cancer because my friend lived very healthily and died of cancer at 40" when less than 1% of people survive past 40, many of those that do inherited immunity to cancer and most of the rest had some sort of identifiable genetic advantage
      - refurb 4y ago
        Huh? "Self-made" can be middle class entirely. Not 1% of the population.
        notahacker 4y ago
codegeek 4y ago
I disagree. "Self made" doesn't mean that you had no society around you and you did everything in silo. Self Made means that you didn't have a lot to start with but with your hard work, persistence and determination (little bit of luck), you made it for yourself. Of course, you will have people and support structures around you. Let me give you an example. Lot of people have support structure and what not but they still don't make it to "self made" because they lack the other qualities such as grit, determination, hard work etc. So yea, people can totally be self made and don't get too hung up literally on the word "self".
- esarbe 4y ago
  To me, you break down very neatly why "self-made" is a strange moniker. A lot of people are hard-working, persistent, full of ideas and determination. But they are not being called "self-made", except if they have that little tad of luck that changes everything and actually makes them successful (as in; earn tons of money). So, that leaves the only distinguished feature that of luck. Wouldn't it be better to call them "luck-made"? > So yea, people can totally be self made and don't get too hung up literally on the word "self". That's good advise!
- hgs3 4y ago
  > Self Made means that you didn't have a lot to start with but with your hard work, persistence and determination (little bit of luck), you made it for yourself. I think this view downplays how important luck is. How many dot com millionaires wouldn't be millionaires today if they'd been born +20 years from their actual birth year? Would the market have waited for them? Luck determines your opportunities - hard work is implied.
kwere 4y ago
most oppurtunty are "handed" by the society, few created their own chances from very different backgrounds, but those who do for sure deserve to be called "selfmade". Still nothing bad in not being a "pioneer"
wan23 4y ago
When people say that no one is "self-made" they usually mean that it is good to remind ourselves that all successful people have more than just themselves to thank for their prosperity. That the framework necessary for success is built and maintained by all of us, and you should respect the people who pave the roads so you can have a smooth drive to work, make the coffee that keeps you alert, and so on. But it's always strange to me when people say the same thing to mean the opposite, that prosperity is just luck, and not the result of anyone's work at all.
- esarbe 4y ago
  > That the framework necessary for success is built and maintained by all of us, and you should respect the people who pave the roads so you can have a smooth drive to work, make the coffee that keeps you alert, and so on. This very much, indeed.
- Adiqq 4y ago
  > But it's always strange to me when people say the same thing to mean the opposite, that prosperity is just luck, and not the result of anyone's work at all. It's easier to achieve success, when you're born in rich family, rich country. It's easier, when you have good health, high intelligence and great people skills. In modern world these factors make difference between success and failure. That's why being "self-made" in most case is over hyped. We can compensate our flaws, but some start without them. In almost every case, you won't reach the top from bottom, because gap in wealth is too huge. "Self-made" is survivor bias.
  - esarbe 4y ago
    > "Self-made" is survivor bias. That's a neat way of putting it. I might steal that.

by esarbe 4y ago

credit_guy 4y ago

That's some real deep philosophical insight there ... It does not matter how much you work, in the end you don't deserve the fruits of your labor, because of course, there is no such thing as fruits of you labor. It's the fruits of the society around us.

esarbe 4y ago
> It's the fruits of the society around us. That's a given. Still, Society needs a way to incentivize people. Some way of encouraging people to be entrepreneurial, curious, industrious and active, to reach beyond what is immediately possible, work on their strengths and on supporting each other to grow in their own.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

It's a poor lens through which view the world. In the same way there are no criminals or good or bad people. Sure, I don't believe in free will either, but from a practical point of view, you should probably give some credit to millionaires who made it without getting money from anyone. And you should give even more credit to millionaires who made it starting with a poor family. Similarly I won't trust criminals as much as non criminals, even if I'm sure they could have been different if their lives had different circumstances. Of course we're lucky to live in the richest society ever created in history which gives us opportunities our ancestors didn't have. You can thank capitalism for that. I feel good about my economic success (almost 1M with just contracting and a failed startup behind). Sure, I'm thankful that my family could afford a computer when I was a kid but nobody really encouraged me to follow this route or gave me any money. My teenage years were all fighting with my parents to stay more on the computer and work while they wanted me to study. And everyone kept telling me there was no money in software development.

steve_adams_86 4y ago
I like to remind myself that had I been born just about anywhere else in the world, I wouldn’t be as fortunate as I am. At least not financially. I’m not a millionaire, but I earn more than almost everyone I know. It’s a matter of where I was born, when, hobbies I fell into, etc. I mean, I grew up poor as hell, undiagnosed ADHD, the whole deal. I was dealt a pretty bad hand, but placed somewhere with so much opportunity that it worked out despite that. You can frame it a lot of ways. Yes I worked hard, I tried to do my best (and still do!), I just don’t feel self made. Having said that, I wouldn’t argue that you aren’t self made. You certainly didn’t have everything handed to you, and I’m sure you’re a hard and smart worker. If anything I’m just cognizant of the person I easily could have been, or the life I could have had, were a few variables to change very slightly. Being born before/away from computers would have been a disaster for my career potential, I think.
- esarbe 4y ago
  I'm in a very similar situation. > Being born before/away from computers would have been a disaster for my career potential, I think. Oh, yes.
esarbe 4y ago
> In the same way there are no criminals or good or bad people. I'm not arguing that no one bears the moral responsibility for their actions or that there are no laws to determine who's a criminal. > Sure, I don't believe in free will either, I didn't make any statements about determinism. > Of course we're lucky to live in the richest society ever created in history which gives us opportunities our ancestors didn't have. You can thank capitalism for that. > Sure, I'm thankful that my family could afford a computer when I was a kid but nobody really encouraged me to follow this route or gave me any money. It's been pretty much the same for me. I think the main point I'm trying to convey is; hard work is not enough. Many people work hard all their live and don't get anything other than a body broken by destitution. Hard work is not the point of the "self-made" millionaire; luck is.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago

refurb 4y ago

If no one is self-made then why do most wealthy people (who didn’t inherit) seem to work so hard?

clcaev 4y ago
Because they are insistent on making sure you know they worked hard: it's part if the role.
blitzar 4y ago
> If no one is self-made then why do most wealthy people (who didn’t inherit) seem to work so hard? You should go see how the other half live. There are many people out there working way harder than any of the billionaires on the hardest working billionaire list who can barely put a meal on the table. There are also many people out there working just as hard and making a paltry 60k a year.
- refurb 4y ago
  That’s like saying “living a health lifestyle doesn’t stop cancer because my friend lived very health and died of cancer at 40”
  - notahacker 4y ago
    It's like saying "living a healthy lifestyle doesn't stop cancer because my friend lived very healthily and died of cancer at 40" when less than 1% of people survive past 40, many of those that do inherited immunity to cancer and most of the rest had some sort of identifiable genetic advantage
    - refurb 4y ago
      Huh? "Self-made" can be middle class entirely. Not 1% of the population.
      - notahacker 4y ago

codegeek 4y ago

I disagree. "Self made" doesn't mean that you had no society around you and you did everything in silo. Self Made means that you didn't have a lot to start with but with your hard work, persistence and determination (little bit of luck), you made it for yourself. Of course, you will have people and support structures around you. Let me give you an example. Lot of people have support structure and what not but they still don't make it to "self made" because they lack the other qualities such as grit, determination, hard work etc. So yea, people can totally be self made and don't get too hung up literally on the word "self".

esarbe 4y ago
To me, you break down very neatly why "self-made" is a strange moniker. A lot of people are hard-working, persistent, full of ideas and determination. But they are not being called "self-made", except if they have that little tad of luck that changes everything and actually makes them successful (as in; earn tons of money). So, that leaves the only distinguished feature that of luck. Wouldn't it be better to call them "luck-made"? > So yea, people can totally be self made and don't get too hung up literally on the word "self". That's good advise!
hgs3 4y ago
> Self Made means that you didn't have a lot to start with but with your hard work, persistence and determination (little bit of luck), you made it for yourself. I think this view downplays how important luck is. How many dot com millionaires wouldn't be millionaires today if they'd been born +20 years from their actual birth year? Would the market have waited for them? Luck determines your opportunities - hard work is implied.

kwere 4y ago

most oppurtunty are "handed" by the society, few created their own chances from very different backgrounds, but those who do for sure deserve to be called "selfmade". Still nothing bad in not being a "pioneer"

wan23 4y ago

When people say that no one is "self-made" they usually mean that it is good to remind ourselves that all successful people have more than just themselves to thank for their prosperity. That the framework necessary for success is built and maintained by all of us, and you should respect the people who pave the roads so you can have a smooth drive to work, make the coffee that keeps you alert, and so on. But it's always strange to me when people say the same thing to mean the opposite, that prosperity is just luck, and not the result of anyone's work at all.

esarbe 4y ago
> That the framework necessary for success is built and maintained by all of us, and you should respect the people who pave the roads so you can have a smooth drive to work, make the coffee that keeps you alert, and so on. This very much, indeed.
Adiqq 4y ago
> But it's always strange to me when people say the same thing to mean the opposite, that prosperity is just luck, and not the result of anyone's work at all. It's easier to achieve success, when you're born in rich family, rich country. It's easier, when you have good health, high intelligence and great people skills. In modern world these factors make difference between success and failure. That's why being "self-made" in most case is over hyped. We can compensate our flaws, but some start without them. In almost every case, you won't reach the top from bottom, because gap in wealth is too huge. "Self-made" is survivor bias.
- esarbe 4y ago
  > "Self-made" is survivor bias. That's a neat way of putting it. I might steal that.