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Their main argument is “no telemetry” (or sometimes “no cemetery tracking”…), but VS Code has a setting to disable telemetry [0], and I would trust that it’s re

Their main argument is “no telemetry” (or sometimes “no cemetery tracking”…), but VS Code has a setting to disable telemetry [0], and I would trust that it’s really disabled if you set it so (why would they lie about something quite trivial to check with Wireshark or such?) > I’m sure there is a small performance gain because you don’t have telemetry running in the background sending data to Microsoft. Have you profiled it? Have you compared VSCodium and VSCode with telemetry off? [0]: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry

madeofpalk 4y ago
The open-vsx.org loads Google Analytics (via GTM) for telemetry, without any prompts or consent, with no way to opt out of it AFAICT.
btdmaster 4y ago
VS Codium has tried, and not succeeded, to disable all telemetry[0][1]. This is with direct access to and patches to source code and all the knobs set to off. If the direction of upstream is diametrically opposed to downstream, it is nearly impossible to prevent these issues. [0] https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/623 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/623 [1] https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/631 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/631
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  Neither of those issues describe any telemetry, unless you define "telemetry" as "uses any internet connectivity that's not even to Microsoft's servers".
  - btdmaster 4y ago
    Is the default npm registry not operated by Microsoft? GitHub definitely is, and that was one of the pings.
    - Beltalowda 4y ago
      It's probably some feature; "runs npm when I navigate its sources (js and ts files)" almost certainly is. There are basically no details at all other than "I saw it did something with the network, therefore telemetry!"
premun 4y ago
I agree but also - a controversial opinion - I am pretty sure Microsoft collects the kind of telemetry to learn about user behavior and improve the IDE, and not to collect private information for some kind of other gain. I am sure that whoever develops Codium will eventually get into a dead-end at some point because they won't have any telemetry connected to the product usage. Other piece is that Codium might inherently actually thrive because of some product decisions based on the telemetry Microsoft has so so it's not a fair fight. Disclaimer: I am a Microsoft employee and this is my opinion only but I say this because I know what it's like to work on apps used by tens of millions of people and I can tell you that you're dead in the water when you have no idea how people use your product. And no, at this scale, controlled user testing is not sufficient. I've worked on countless Microsoft products over the years from Office through Skype to Teams. I've also been personally adding some telemetry into these but ALWAYS to be data driven when making product decisions such as "which button should we display here", "did we improve latency/stability/discoverability/.." and "which new feature will be actually useful". Now.. I don't know VS Code 100% but I did see some internal talks, have access to some telemetry (didn't browse it much) and I can say that the team is full of good intentions. They just deal with difficult UX problems. I've also worked at Google and I think it's much different when your product/business is using/selling data about customers as compared to creating tools for developers. You are after a very different type of data in essence and I think the actual privacy is not contended here. I am sure people will spin this the usual way "big company big bad" and "you never know what they will try to collect next" but in that case, I can only suggest you get a job in one of these companies and see how you will develop anything without real data to back your decisions and assumptions about the real world.
- shaan7 4y ago
  I am really curious but do not have the time to check this myself: is the vscode telemetry part of the open core bit? The reason I ask this is because I agree with your points and I usually allow telemetry for FOSS programs (for example [1]). If the telemetry code is open and people can verify that there isn't any identifiable data that is being collected, I don't see any issue with leaving it on in vscode too. [1] https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/what-we-can-learn-from-plasma-telemetry/ https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/what-we-can-learn-fro...
hedora 4y ago
If Windows, Office, LinkedIn, GitHub, Skype and Chat are any indication, the telemetry situation will worsen severely over time.

madeofpalk 4y ago

The open-vsx.org loads Google Analytics (via GTM) for telemetry, without any prompts or consent, with no way to opt out of it AFAICT.

btdmaster 4y ago

VS Codium has tried, and not succeeded, to disable all telemetry[0][1]. This is with direct access to and patches to source code and all the knobs set to off. If the direction of upstream is diametrically opposed to downstream, it is nearly impossible to prevent these issues. [0] https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/623 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/623 [1] https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/631 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/issues/631

Beltalowda 4y ago
Neither of those issues describe any telemetry, unless you define "telemetry" as "uses any internet connectivity that's not even to Microsoft's servers".
- btdmaster 4y ago
  Is the default npm registry not operated by Microsoft? GitHub definitely is, and that was one of the pings.
  - Beltalowda 4y ago
    It's probably some feature; "runs npm when I navigate its sources (js and ts files)" almost certainly is. There are basically no details at all other than "I saw it did something with the network, therefore telemetry!"

premun 4y ago

I agree but also - a controversial opinion - I am pretty sure Microsoft collects the kind of telemetry to learn about user behavior and improve the IDE, and not to collect private information for some kind of other gain. I am sure that whoever develops Codium will eventually get into a dead-end at some point because they won't have any telemetry connected to the product usage. Other piece is that Codium might inherently actually thrive because of some product decisions based on the telemetry Microsoft has so so it's not a fair fight. Disclaimer: I am a Microsoft employee and this is my opinion only but I say this because I know what it's like to work on apps used by tens of millions of people and I can tell you that you're dead in the water when you have no idea how people use your product. And no, at this scale, controlled user testing is not sufficient. I've worked on countless Microsoft products over the years from Office through Skype to Teams. I've also been personally adding some telemetry into these but ALWAYS to be data driven when making product decisions such as "which button should we display here", "did we improve latency/stability/discoverability/.." and "which new feature will be actually useful". Now.. I don't know VS Code 100% but I did see some internal talks, have access to some telemetry (didn't browse it much) and I can say that the team is full of good intentions. They just deal with difficult UX problems. I've also worked at Google and I think it's much different when your product/business is using/selling data about customers as compared to creating tools for developers. You are after a very different type of data in essence and I think the actual privacy is not contended here. I am sure people will spin this the usual way "big company big bad" and "you never know what they will try to collect next" but in that case, I can only suggest you get a job in one of these companies and see how you will develop anything without real data to back your decisions and assumptions about the real world.

shaan7 4y ago
I am really curious but do not have the time to check this myself: is the vscode telemetry part of the open core bit? The reason I ask this is because I agree with your points and I usually allow telemetry for FOSS programs (for example [1]). If the telemetry code is open and people can verify that there isn't any identifiable data that is being collected, I don't see any issue with leaving it on in vscode too. [1] https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/what-we-can-learn-from-plasma-telemetry/ https://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/what-we-can-learn-fro...

hedora 4y ago

If Windows, Office, LinkedIn, GitHub, Skype and Chat are any indication, the telemetry situation will worsen severely over time.