4 ms·

All of men who decided their desire or even just convenience was more important than a woman's life. The songs dwell on the murderer's emotion, and pretty much

All of men who decided their desire or even just convenience was more important than a woman's life. The songs dwell on the murderer's emotion, and pretty much skip over the innocent facing death. Because men matter, and women are property I guess. 'Great American' my ass. Strange anybody today would want to repeat these stories.

fullshark 4y ago
So great art can’t be made about trying to understand or illustrate the motives of murderers?
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  Yeah jump right to a straw-man dichotomy. We can't find old mysogynist lyrics objectionable without being anti-art or some nonsense.
  - fullshark 4y ago
    You seem to object to depicting someone or someone's thoughts who is objectionable without either a big sign from the author saying "HEY REMINDER I THINK THIS IS BAD" or presenting equal counter weight to the people they hurt or something. You're free to think these particular lyrics/songs are bad of course, but the rationale you give and the larger discussion over whether you are able to create great art with the issues you present is more interesting than just whether these particular songs have merit imo. When I read these lyrics and your comment it reminded me of the big debate over Eminem's lyrics almost 20(!) years ago, where he would write songs at length about fantasizing over murdering his ex-wife. Was he channeling that rage he felt into art about the human condition and how it deals with pain/rage when one feels hurt, or was he just making murder porn to work out his demons? Ultimately these were interesting discussions i remember, but these days the discussions seem to be dominated by childish (sorry but it's how I see it not to pile on you particularly) notions that "this makes me feel bad therefore it is bad" or "depiction equals endorsement." The end result is truly subversive art that challenges the mind seems to be in short supply at the moment and it's a real shame.
tphyahoo2 4y ago
These stories are a way of keeping alive the memory of the victims. In this case the (alleged) murderer was even tracked down and brought back for a second trial, years later. Songs can keep rage alive for a community. They're great stories, and it's not strange at all. Good article.
- Morizero 4y ago
  I would argue that since Laura Foster doesn't have a Wikipedia page but her murderer Tom Dula does is evidence to the contrary.
  - yakak 4y ago
    It's rather inappropriate that we don't change names of victims when they are no longer relevant to active investigation. I would rather die in a slip and fall accident than become famous and have details of my life explored by becoming notable for being the victim of an asshat, thank you very much.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  The victim is described, sure. But their memory? Not so much - they get a line maybe. Then a dozen stanzas about the murderer. These ballads are dated, tone-deaf and disturbing.
DFHippie 4y ago
My reaction was also along these lines. They might be better called "domestic violence ballads". Perhaps the focus is on the perspective of the man because he's the one left alive in the end to lament his fate.
- stanrivers 4y ago
  This is the terrible things about murders... their victims never have a voice going forward, but they do. Good observation - what do you think is the right thing... completely forget the event? completely hide the murderer? review the victim's life before the murder? Its a hard one for sure... you don't want to make evil famous... you dont want to invade the privacy of the victim... but you need to prevent things in the future
Taywee 4y ago
Haven't female murderers been treated about the same? I think it's more just people's fascinations with the motivations and feelings behind murder than some misogynistic stuff. To make that claim, you really would have to compare apples to apples. In ballads about female murderers, are the subjects treated differently? I can't really think of all that many, but in ones about Lizzie Borden, I don't recall any difference in focus or tone from the ones about male killers.
sky-kedge0749 4y ago
This is a good point, thanks for making it. I thought of "Folsom Prison Blues" by Johnny Cash as a counterexample since in that song the victim is a man, but then thought of "Cocaine Blues" by Cash which has a female victim. "Cocaine Blues" is mainly about drug use with the man killing his cheating wife treated as a minor detail. I thought Cash wrote the song and so it wouldn't count as a murder ballad if we say murder ballads have to be folk songs, however it turns out Cash just did a famous cover of the song written by T. J. "Red" Arnall and recorded by Arnall probably in 1947 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_Blues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_Blues, which was in turn based on an American folk song "Little Sadie" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Sadie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Sadie. So "Cocaine Blues" is a murder ballad in the classic sense, as well as an example of centering the man as you say.
- Taywee 4y ago
  Is there a murder ballad that doesn't center the murderer? I'm skeptical if it's actually about the sex and not just that most murders are committed by men, and people are most interested in the murderer and the murder itself.
  - grogenaut 4y ago
    The night the lights went out in georgia focuses on a different living victim
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
johtso 4y ago
This is an interesting take. Woman being brutally murdered by man/lover/.. is definitely the dominant theme. You could compare it to the modern tv thriller, how many plots revolve around a woman killed by a man with the female character basically just playing the part of the symbolic victim? I'm not sure the idea that the murderer's emotions are given so much more focus resonates with me though. Obviously hard to generalise as the world of folk music is vast, but my impression is that these kinds of songs usually skip over almost all nuance and detail, being made up of a few standard tropes/cliches, and the interest often comes from some twist/variation on the theme, or what the musician brings to it. The world of folk music is filled with distasteful themes, and stuff that hasn't aged well. I'd say that sometimes performing a flawed song in a modern context can itself be subversive though. Not every performance of a song is a celebration of it. There's space for nuance.
- stanrivers 4y ago
  I think I agree with you - the song is more about the situation around the murder. I think in the past, that was a way to remember the victim for those that already knew everything about the victim because they were neighbors etc... As time goes on, it becomes more a haunting performance using the murder as a playground for emotion... Interesting
qiskit 4y ago
> Strange anybody today would want to repeat these stories. If this triggers you that much, then you are not going to like the iliad, bible or much of human literature/art/etc.
- stanrivers 4y ago
  Ha - it is amazing how much of human history is just misery, isn't it? even for children growing up, there is always "evil" that is shared through stories like this as lessons. It's part of just being a human.

fullshark 4y ago

So great art can’t be made about trying to understand or illustrate the motives of murderers?

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
Yeah jump right to a straw-man dichotomy. We can't find old mysogynist lyrics objectionable without being anti-art or some nonsense.
- fullshark 4y ago
  You seem to object to depicting someone or someone's thoughts who is objectionable without either a big sign from the author saying "HEY REMINDER I THINK THIS IS BAD" or presenting equal counter weight to the people they hurt or something. You're free to think these particular lyrics/songs are bad of course, but the rationale you give and the larger discussion over whether you are able to create great art with the issues you present is more interesting than just whether these particular songs have merit imo. When I read these lyrics and your comment it reminded me of the big debate over Eminem's lyrics almost 20(!) years ago, where he would write songs at length about fantasizing over murdering his ex-wife. Was he channeling that rage he felt into art about the human condition and how it deals with pain/rage when one feels hurt, or was he just making murder porn to work out his demons? Ultimately these were interesting discussions i remember, but these days the discussions seem to be dominated by childish (sorry but it's how I see it not to pile on you particularly) notions that "this makes me feel bad therefore it is bad" or "depiction equals endorsement." The end result is truly subversive art that challenges the mind seems to be in short supply at the moment and it's a real shame.

tphyahoo2 4y ago

These stories are a way of keeping alive the memory of the victims. In this case the (alleged) murderer was even tracked down and brought back for a second trial, years later. Songs can keep rage alive for a community. They're great stories, and it's not strange at all. Good article.

Morizero 4y ago
I would argue that since Laura Foster doesn't have a Wikipedia page but her murderer Tom Dula does is evidence to the contrary.
- yakak 4y ago
  It's rather inappropriate that we don't change names of victims when they are no longer relevant to active investigation. I would rather die in a slip and fall accident than become famous and have details of my life explored by becoming notable for being the victim of an asshat, thank you very much.
JoeAltmaier 4y ago
The victim is described, sure. But their memory? Not so much - they get a line maybe. Then a dozen stanzas about the murderer. These ballads are dated, tone-deaf and disturbing.

DFHippie 4y ago

My reaction was also along these lines. They might be better called "domestic violence ballads". Perhaps the focus is on the perspective of the man because he's the one left alive in the end to lament his fate.

stanrivers 4y ago
This is the terrible things about murders... their victims never have a voice going forward, but they do. Good observation - what do you think is the right thing... completely forget the event? completely hide the murderer? review the victim's life before the murder? Its a hard one for sure... you don't want to make evil famous... you dont want to invade the privacy of the victim... but you need to prevent things in the future

Taywee 4y ago

Haven't female murderers been treated about the same? I think it's more just people's fascinations with the motivations and feelings behind murder than some misogynistic stuff. To make that claim, you really would have to compare apples to apples. In ballads about female murderers, are the subjects treated differently? I can't really think of all that many, but in ones about Lizzie Borden, I don't recall any difference in focus or tone from the ones about male killers.

sky-kedge0749 4y ago

This is a good point, thanks for making it. I thought of "Folsom Prison Blues" by Johnny Cash as a counterexample since in that song the victim is a man, but then thought of "Cocaine Blues" by Cash which has a female victim. "Cocaine Blues" is mainly about drug use with the man killing his cheating wife treated as a minor detail. I thought Cash wrote the song and so it wouldn't count as a murder ballad if we say murder ballads have to be folk songs, however it turns out Cash just did a famous cover of the song written by T. J. "Red" Arnall and recorded by Arnall probably in 1947 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_Blues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_Blues, which was in turn based on an American folk song "Little Sadie" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Sadie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Sadie. So "Cocaine Blues" is a murder ballad in the classic sense, as well as an example of centering the man as you say.

Taywee 4y ago
Is there a murder ballad that doesn't center the murderer? I'm skeptical if it's actually about the sex and not just that most murders are committed by men, and people are most interested in the murderer and the murder itself.
- grogenaut 4y ago
  The night the lights went out in georgia focuses on a different living victim
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

johtso 4y ago

This is an interesting take. Woman being brutally murdered by man/lover/.. is definitely the dominant theme. You could compare it to the modern tv thriller, how many plots revolve around a woman killed by a man with the female character basically just playing the part of the symbolic victim? I'm not sure the idea that the murderer's emotions are given so much more focus resonates with me though. Obviously hard to generalise as the world of folk music is vast, but my impression is that these kinds of songs usually skip over almost all nuance and detail, being made up of a few standard tropes/cliches, and the interest often comes from some twist/variation on the theme, or what the musician brings to it. The world of folk music is filled with distasteful themes, and stuff that hasn't aged well. I'd say that sometimes performing a flawed song in a modern context can itself be subversive though. Not every performance of a song is a celebration of it. There's space for nuance.

stanrivers 4y ago
I think I agree with you - the song is more about the situation around the murder. I think in the past, that was a way to remember the victim for those that already knew everything about the victim because they were neighbors etc... As time goes on, it becomes more a haunting performance using the murder as a playground for emotion... Interesting

qiskit 4y ago

> Strange anybody today would want to repeat these stories. If this triggers you that much, then you are not going to like the iliad, bible or much of human literature/art/etc.

stanrivers 4y ago
Ha - it is amazing how much of human history is just misery, isn't it? even for children growing up, there is always "evil" that is shared through stories like this as lessons. It's part of just being a human.