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Author's main point is that computers make their decisions based purely on how they are programmed, disregarding any human feeling. Well, the same can be said a

Author's main point is that computers make their decisions based purely on how they are programmed, disregarding any human feeling. Well, the same can be said about nature.

XorNot 4y ago
Sure but the story of civilization has been a constant struggle to ensure nature does not make decisions for us. Whereas we're currently powering in the opposite direction with computers.
- MichaelEstes 4y ago
  Ya and we’ve sure done a bang up job of making sure nature doesn’t make any decisions for us.
- sfriedr 4y ago
  As we speak nature is serving us with a particulay nasty "decision" called climate change. No, we're still at the mercy but just on a different scale. Earlier it was the individual, now it is the population.
  - southerntofu 4y ago
    I think that's precisely what the parent comment was being ironic about. We built industry to evade natural conditions, but through mass industrialization and planned obsolescence we're actually pushing nature to eradicate us all (and millions of other species alongside). Aren't you two saying the same thing?
    - XorNot 4y ago
      This is definitely not what I was saying. What I was saying is that I live in a house with a roof and electric lighting, and use modern medicine. The key word was "struggle".
      - southerntofu 4y ago
        Sorry for misinterpreting your message! Although i don't understand what "opposite" direction means in said message given your explanation.
- eterevsky 4y ago
  How is it in an opposite direction with computers? Whenever you are writing a program you are trying to as much as possible fulfill what your user wishes.
  - hapiri 4y ago
    Is it what your user wishes or what you wish your user to see.
  - csydas 4y ago
    I'm not sure that's exactly true and I'm not sure on it's applicability to the article. The author's point isn't about that it disregards human feelings in my opinion, it's that we implicitly trust and idolize the machines without thinking about the biases and uses for a lot of the technology we rely on. I actually feel the examples used by the author are not great and a bit showy and repeating their initial anecdote, but let's consider some technologies that carry the same premises the author comments on but have a lot of misuses by humans. - KPI tracking tools. Useful of course, but what a lot of persons miss is the I in KPI, which is __indicator__. Numbers don't lie, but the people reading the numbers do, often unintentionally. Consider the classic example of a company struggling with customer satisfaction (CSAT) that looks just at KPIs, sees the entire team is in the green save CSAT, but customer satisfaction is getting worse and worse. The management is scratching their heads because the numbers seem contradictory, but in fact, they fail to realize that the KPI for closed cases has been optimized for by the support team and emphasizes closing cases by any means instead of solving issues correctly - Human detection mechanisms that fail to detect persons with darker skin tones (this was frequently an issue even as recently as the 2010's when the tech was getting a ton of attention); the researchers didn't consider or didn't bother to test with darker skin tones - Speech to text that cannot handle accents/dialects or doesn't work for non-english at all (I even found this today talking with a colleague who is a non-native English speaker; as I gushed over the M1 Mac dictation tool being pretty damn good, she reminded me it's because I'm a native speaker and the dictation is not very good at handling non-native speakers. Their accents may be parsable by humans, but the dictation AI is not trained to really handle this) - Edit: adding this one cause it hits close to home. Call time monitoring that punishes non-native speakers or persons with speech impediments because they need to ask additional questions or just take longer to convey the same point. At one of my workplaces where I oversaw support, I lost a number of good engineers to management KPI obsession because of such non-sense. They were demonstrably better in every technical metric than their English-native speaking peers, but the KPIs for calls showed them to be inefficient. Rather than analyze the actual content and capabilities of the engineers, when layoffs came, the KPI was the only metric considered and we lost some very good tech people needlessly. I did not stay with this organization for long as I was disgusted by such practices and my concerns fell on deaf ears. The list can go on, and yes, implicitly the machines are working exactly as designed and there are human failings that go into the misinterpretations. The problem is the machines being hailed as the ultimately objective and functional implementation, an authoritative statement on the condition the machine is programmed to check, and this is exactly how they're marketed or even thought of by the creators. Add in the continuing obsession with minimum viable products to get to market and you just end up with these implicit biases being baked into products from the beginning and it can have very nasty side effects. That is the concern I believe from the article; it's not just that machines do exactly what they're programmed to sometimes bad outcomes, but that we put a lot of faith and trust into these machines and models without questioning it. I respond to this post as I think it's not a safe thing to assume that when you program you try to fulfill the user wishes as much as possible -- WebDev is a perfect example filled with tons of "Dev-friendly" features that users loathe, but it's better for the Dev and it looks better for the company to have these. Or even just talk with your colleagues from time to time and ask how many shortcuts they've taken that is a pain for the users, but ultimately easier to write and lets you ship sooner. Hell, I'm guilty of this so I'm not without sin. My takeaway from the article is that we need to avoid the idealized understanding of programming and avoid concepts like "Code is Law", because it fails to recognize the biases we write into our code and systems. Don't take biases as political either, think about simple use cases you miss and never consider when writing some program or modeling your data structure, innocently enough in most cases, but now it's baked into the program because refactoring is too expensive due to tech debt. A program and a hungry/scared mountain lion might indeed both just be acting as they're programmed; no one is trying to convince me to trust the mountain lion though.
raydiatian 4y ago
Come see the violence inherent to the system, I’m being repressed
agumonkey 4y ago
Ironically this time, we started the problem :) (or some would say nature made us do that)
blueflow 4y ago
I think the article tells more about the Authors mental health than about computers...

Author's main point is that computers make their decisions based purely on how they are programmed, disregarding any human feeling. Well, the same can be said about nature.

XorNot 4y ago

Sure but the story of civilization has been a constant struggle to ensure nature does not make decisions for us. Whereas we're currently powering in the opposite direction with computers.

MichaelEstes 4y ago
Ya and we’ve sure done a bang up job of making sure nature doesn’t make any decisions for us.
sfriedr 4y ago
As we speak nature is serving us with a particulay nasty "decision" called climate change. No, we're still at the mercy but just on a different scale. Earlier it was the individual, now it is the population.
- southerntofu 4y ago
  I think that's precisely what the parent comment was being ironic about. We built industry to evade natural conditions, but through mass industrialization and planned obsolescence we're actually pushing nature to eradicate us all (and millions of other species alongside). Aren't you two saying the same thing?
  - XorNot 4y ago
    This is definitely not what I was saying. What I was saying is that I live in a house with a roof and electric lighting, and use modern medicine. The key word was "struggle".
    - southerntofu 4y ago
      Sorry for misinterpreting your message! Although i don't understand what "opposite" direction means in said message given your explanation.
eterevsky 4y ago
How is it in an opposite direction with computers? Whenever you are writing a program you are trying to as much as possible fulfill what your user wishes.
- hapiri 4y ago
  Is it what your user wishes or what you wish your user to see.
- csydas 4y ago
  I'm not sure that's exactly true and I'm not sure on it's applicability to the article. The author's point isn't about that it disregards human feelings in my opinion, it's that we implicitly trust and idolize the machines without thinking about the biases and uses for a lot of the technology we rely on. I actually feel the examples used by the author are not great and a bit showy and repeating their initial anecdote, but let's consider some technologies that carry the same premises the author comments on but have a lot of misuses by humans. - KPI tracking tools. Useful of course, but what a lot of persons miss is the I in KPI, which is __indicator__. Numbers don't lie, but the people reading the numbers do, often unintentionally. Consider the classic example of a company struggling with customer satisfaction (CSAT) that looks just at KPIs, sees the entire team is in the green save CSAT, but customer satisfaction is getting worse and worse. The management is scratching their heads because the numbers seem contradictory, but in fact, they fail to realize that the KPI for closed cases has been optimized for by the support team and emphasizes closing cases by any means instead of solving issues correctly - Human detection mechanisms that fail to detect persons with darker skin tones (this was frequently an issue even as recently as the 2010's when the tech was getting a ton of attention); the researchers didn't consider or didn't bother to test with darker skin tones - Speech to text that cannot handle accents/dialects or doesn't work for non-english at all (I even found this today talking with a colleague who is a non-native English speaker; as I gushed over the M1 Mac dictation tool being pretty damn good, she reminded me it's because I'm a native speaker and the dictation is not very good at handling non-native speakers. Their accents may be parsable by humans, but the dictation AI is not trained to really handle this) - Edit: adding this one cause it hits close to home. Call time monitoring that punishes non-native speakers or persons with speech impediments because they need to ask additional questions or just take longer to convey the same point. At one of my workplaces where I oversaw support, I lost a number of good engineers to management KPI obsession because of such non-sense. They were demonstrably better in every technical metric than their English-native speaking peers, but the KPIs for calls showed them to be inefficient. Rather than analyze the actual content and capabilities of the engineers, when layoffs came, the KPI was the only metric considered and we lost some very good tech people needlessly. I did not stay with this organization for long as I was disgusted by such practices and my concerns fell on deaf ears. The list can go on, and yes, implicitly the machines are working exactly as designed and there are human failings that go into the misinterpretations. The problem is the machines being hailed as the ultimately objective and functional implementation, an authoritative statement on the condition the machine is programmed to check, and this is exactly how they're marketed or even thought of by the creators. Add in the continuing obsession with minimum viable products to get to market and you just end up with these implicit biases being baked into products from the beginning and it can have very nasty side effects. That is the concern I believe from the article; it's not just that machines do exactly what they're programmed to sometimes bad outcomes, but that we put a lot of faith and trust into these machines and models without questioning it. I respond to this post as I think it's not a safe thing to assume that when you program you try to fulfill the user wishes as much as possible -- WebDev is a perfect example filled with tons of "Dev-friendly" features that users loathe, but it's better for the Dev and it looks better for the company to have these. Or even just talk with your colleagues from time to time and ask how many shortcuts they've taken that is a pain for the users, but ultimately easier to write and lets you ship sooner. Hell, I'm guilty of this so I'm not without sin. My takeaway from the article is that we need to avoid the idealized understanding of programming and avoid concepts like "Code is Law", because it fails to recognize the biases we write into our code and systems. Don't take biases as political either, think about simple use cases you miss and never consider when writing some program or modeling your data structure, innocently enough in most cases, but now it's baked into the program because refactoring is too expensive due to tech debt. A program and a hungry/scared mountain lion might indeed both just be acting as they're programmed; no one is trying to convince me to trust the mountain lion though.

raydiatian 4y ago

Come see the violence inherent to the system, I’m being repressed

agumonkey 4y ago

Ironically this time, we started the problem :) (or some would say nature made us do that)

blueflow 4y ago

I think the article tells more about the Authors mental health than about computers...