5 ms·

I feel like, what can I do? If I have a lying red/blue on my hands, my only choice is to swap it for a lying blue/red.

sph 4y ago
Voting gives you an illusion of control over the situation, but in fact blue or red it's the exact same outcome. Your ballot is like the close door button in the elevator.
- adrianN 4y ago
  That is an often repeated argument, but I don't think the policies supported by the two parties in the US are exactly the same. There is a very large overlap of course, but "your vote doesn't count" only strengthens extremists (on either side).
- haswell 4y ago
  While we do have little direct control over the situation, and while it's true that both parties lie, lying is not the outcome. Lying is a tactic employed along the way to the outcome. In no way do I mean to imply that lying is is unimportant because both parties do it - it's unacceptable regardless, but I have trouble accepting arguments that point to a shared <bad> thing between parties and then use that to conclude that voting doesn't really matter.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Then why is it that blue states have extended parental leave (18 weeks+), paid parental/family leave, paid sick leave, non tipped minimum wages, non compete bans, minimum salaries, daily overtime laws, access to women’s healthcare (abortion), legal marijuana (civil liberties), expanded Medicaid funding so more poor people can get better healthcare, etc? The new wage transparency laws are coming from Colorado and Washington, also blue states. It seems very clear that at least some priorities of the blue team are pro worker and pro civil liberties. On the federal level, the Republicans have passed two large tax cuts in the last 22 years and entered into two expensive wars. Democrats have passed the only large wealth transfer from rich to poor via Affordable Care Act in 2009, and followed it up with No Surprise Billing Act in 2021, while Republicans have tried to dismantled ACA for 13 years. Democrats passed a bill to expand infrastructure spending in 2021, and tried to pass federal paid parental leave and childcare laws. Republicans spent the same time trying to revoke women’s access to healthcare (abortion) and same sex marriage. Democrats withdrew military from Iraq and Afghanistan. Repubs spend their time defending literal traitors to the country. Obviously Dems are not perfect, but how anyone can say both are the same is beyond me.
  - benj111 4y ago
    Why the downvotes? The parent seemed to give some solid examples of how different parties are in fact different.
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    They are both the same as in they are both bad, even if in different ways. In my country for more than 20 years people don't vote for a party (and we have more than 2), but they vote against what they see as the worst party. It is negative voting. If I would move and vote in US, I have very strong reasons to vote against both major parties, they look like the choice between getting shot to death or hanged to death: no matter what you choose, the result is bad. Also some part of that enumeration implied as positive changes is not seen as positive in countries that did such things 20-30 years ago and saw the effects. Lots of people seem to wear horse blinders, they do things that were done by other countries ignoring the outcome in these countries. The emperor is naked and nobody wants to admit it.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Without specifics, I have no clue what you are talking about re horse blinders. I have greatly benefited from the policies I specified, so I do not see why I should view both as “bad in different ways”. I do work to support ranked choice voting so that I can get more than 2 choices at the polls, but until then, I work with what I have.
      - AdrianB1 4y ago
        Some of the policies you benefited are from a zero sum game, so your gain is someone else's loss. When you benefit, you turn a blind eye to the negatives (this is the horse blinder reference).
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Politics is the allocation of limited resources without violence. I am aware that sometimes, the policies I benefit from takes from others, and many times I support policies where I lose and it helps others, such as healthcare and education for poorer people, or healthy school lunches for all kids. But I also believe narrowing the income/wealth gap ultimately helps me by increasing stability and social cohesion, even if it hurts my wallet.
rrradical 4y ago
I get what you're saying, but primaries are a thing, and the range of choices there is typically pretty broad. It's not like the general election is the first chance you get to express your opinion. And yea maybe you have good reason not to like the finalists, but if more people agreed with you, there would be a different nominee.
- somenameforme 4y ago
  With no slight intended, do you not remember the most recent election? "The party" not only gets to decide who the candidates will be, but ultimately who the candidate, in the singular, will be. When the people weren't voting like they were supposed to, as informed by the media, "the party" simply had everybody else step down and endorse the chosen one. Well everybody except one token opponent to maintain the charade that the decision was driven by "democracy." And if that wasn't enough they took the unpopular chosen one, paired him with another even more unpopular candidate as a vice president, called that the ticket, and people voted for them, en masse, because "well, they're awful but they're less awful than the alternative."
  - rrradical 4y ago
    It's quite possible you know more about this than me, but that's not how I remember it. Do you have a citation of a reputable source? This kind of reads like a conspiracy theory.

sph 4y ago

Voting gives you an illusion of control over the situation, but in fact blue or red it's the exact same outcome. Your ballot is like the close door button in the elevator.

adrianN 4y ago
That is an often repeated argument, but I don't think the policies supported by the two parties in the US are exactly the same. There is a very large overlap of course, but "your vote doesn't count" only strengthens extremists (on either side).
haswell 4y ago
While we do have little direct control over the situation, and while it's true that both parties lie, lying is not the outcome. Lying is a tactic employed along the way to the outcome. In no way do I mean to imply that lying is is unimportant because both parties do it - it's unacceptable regardless, but I have trouble accepting arguments that point to a shared <bad> thing between parties and then use that to conclude that voting doesn't really matter.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
Then why is it that blue states have extended parental leave (18 weeks+), paid parental/family leave, paid sick leave, non tipped minimum wages, non compete bans, minimum salaries, daily overtime laws, access to women’s healthcare (abortion), legal marijuana (civil liberties), expanded Medicaid funding so more poor people can get better healthcare, etc? The new wage transparency laws are coming from Colorado and Washington, also blue states. It seems very clear that at least some priorities of the blue team are pro worker and pro civil liberties. On the federal level, the Republicans have passed two large tax cuts in the last 22 years and entered into two expensive wars. Democrats have passed the only large wealth transfer from rich to poor via Affordable Care Act in 2009, and followed it up with No Surprise Billing Act in 2021, while Republicans have tried to dismantled ACA for 13 years. Democrats passed a bill to expand infrastructure spending in 2021, and tried to pass federal paid parental leave and childcare laws. Republicans spent the same time trying to revoke women’s access to healthcare (abortion) and same sex marriage. Democrats withdrew military from Iraq and Afghanistan. Repubs spend their time defending literal traitors to the country. Obviously Dems are not perfect, but how anyone can say both are the same is beyond me.
- benj111 4y ago
  Why the downvotes? The parent seemed to give some solid examples of how different parties are in fact different.
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  They are both the same as in they are both bad, even if in different ways. In my country for more than 20 years people don't vote for a party (and we have more than 2), but they vote against what they see as the worst party. It is negative voting. If I would move and vote in US, I have very strong reasons to vote against both major parties, they look like the choice between getting shot to death or hanged to death: no matter what you choose, the result is bad. Also some part of that enumeration implied as positive changes is not seen as positive in countries that did such things 20-30 years ago and saw the effects. Lots of people seem to wear horse blinders, they do things that were done by other countries ignoring the outcome in these countries. The emperor is naked and nobody wants to admit it.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Without specifics, I have no clue what you are talking about re horse blinders. I have greatly benefited from the policies I specified, so I do not see why I should view both as “bad in different ways”. I do work to support ranked choice voting so that I can get more than 2 choices at the polls, but until then, I work with what I have.
    - AdrianB1 4y ago
      Some of the policies you benefited are from a zero sum game, so your gain is someone else's loss. When you benefit, you turn a blind eye to the negatives (this is the horse blinder reference).
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Politics is the allocation of limited resources without violence. I am aware that sometimes, the policies I benefit from takes from others, and many times I support policies where I lose and it helps others, such as healthcare and education for poorer people, or healthy school lunches for all kids. But I also believe narrowing the income/wealth gap ultimately helps me by increasing stability and social cohesion, even if it hurts my wallet.

rrradical 4y ago

I get what you're saying, but primaries are a thing, and the range of choices there is typically pretty broad. It's not like the general election is the first chance you get to express your opinion. And yea maybe you have good reason not to like the finalists, but if more people agreed with you, there would be a different nominee.

somenameforme 4y ago
With no slight intended, do you not remember the most recent election? "The party" not only gets to decide who the candidates will be, but ultimately who the candidate, in the singular, will be. When the people weren't voting like they were supposed to, as informed by the media, "the party" simply had everybody else step down and endorse the chosen one. Well everybody except one token opponent to maintain the charade that the decision was driven by "democracy." And if that wasn't enough they took the unpopular chosen one, paired him with another even more unpopular candidate as a vice president, called that the ticket, and people voted for them, en masse, because "well, they're awful but they're less awful than the alternative."
- rrradical 4y ago
  It's quite possible you know more about this than me, but that's not how I remember it. Do you have a citation of a reputable source? This kind of reads like a conspiracy theory.