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I don’t think anyone reads about Fords (for example) manual and thinks “oh wow, I don’t even have to have to pay attention and have my hands on the wheel!”. Th

I don’t think anyone reads about Fords (for example) manual and thinks “oh wow, I don’t even have to have to pay attention and have my hands on the wheel!”. The fact that it’s a big enough problem for Tesla that they have to monitor it, and still have issues, points to the main difference being user expectations and marketing around these features.

thfuran 4y ago
It's almost as if calling it "autopilot" was wildly irresponsible.
- jhgb 4y ago
  It's a very appropriate name for something that automates the long boring things while not eliminating a human operator for exciting transient things, just like in an airplane or on a ship. What about it was irresponsible? Sounds like a completely typical autopilot to me.
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    What's irresponsible to me is how Tesla has advertised their Autopilot feature for the last six years[1]: > The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...
    - zaptrem 4y ago
      This is very clearly labeled as an ad for future software capabilities.
      - heavyset_go 4y ago
        There is no such "clear" label on the video or website. Tesla titled the page "Tesla Self-Driving Demonstration". Tesla's embedded video is titled "Autopilot Full Self-Driving Hardware (Neighborhood Long)" with a video description that says[1]: > Take a ride in a Tesla with Full Self-Driving Hardware. That's it. Nowhere is it "clearly labeled as an ad for future software capabilities". [1] https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=128712855 https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&...
    - simondotau 4y ago
      > …how Tesla has advertised their Autopilot feature… I don’t see the word autopilot on that page or that video.
      - heavyset_go 4y ago
        Look at the URL[1] and then look at the title of the video, which is "Autopilot Full Self-Driving Hardware (Neighborhood Long)"[2]. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware... [2] https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=128712855 https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&...
        simondotau 4y ago
        Fair points, but it doesn't invalidate what I said: I don’t see the word autopilot on that page or that video. And it's not on that page, and it wasn't in the video. The VIMEO video title doesn't appear on embeds.
    - jhgb 4y ago
      Possibly, but notice that this is not what I was responding to, which was purely the naming of the feature. So I'm not sure how this segue is relevant? Do you have anything to comment w/r to the name?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    When drivers receive as much training as pilots, then it will be reasonable to draw comparisons between autopilot for planes, and autopilot for cars.
    - jhgb 4y ago
      How is this relevant? Autopilots for airplanes don't eliminate human operators. Autopilots for ships don't eliminate human operators. Tesla's autopilot doesn't eliminate human operators either. On basis of that, I would deem the naming as very appropriate, the level of training of the respective required operators notwithstanding.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      That argument makes no sense. Generally speaking, tools are named based on the capability of the tool. We don't make a rule of changing the names of tools based on the predicted skill of the operator.
    - jimmyswimmy 4y ago
      Interesting idea. Pilots require 40 hours minimum to take the certification test, but most need maybe 60 or so. Pretty sure I had a lot more than that for driving. In addition to the state-mandated driving instruction which was probably around 8 hours total (some of it "watching" other student drivers) I'm sure I had a few hundred hours of supervised driving under my belt before taking the test. Outlier? Maybe, but I can't imagine less than the 40-60 hours required for prospective pilots. Also, I don't think student pilots typically train on autopilots. Those kinds of technology components are usually learned either on one's own or with an instructor/co-pilot after completing basic training. The basic pilot training focuses on safe pilotage from takeoff to landing, including land nav and radio communications, and ignores pretty much all modern technology.
  - kalleboo 4y ago
    It's a very appropriate name for people who understand aviation, but I've heard A LOT of people over the years say stuff to the effect of "the planes these days can fly themselves, they don't actually need pilots they're just in there due to the unions"
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - simondotau 4y ago
      If the argument was "Tesla shouldn't use the Autopilot name because some people are grossly misinformed about aspects of the aviation industry" then I'd have some sympathy for it. I'd still consider it a poor argument, but at least it's one I could comprehend and respect.
      - thfuran 4y ago
        Not just some people but many people and not just some aspects of the aviation industry but precisely those with are being referenced.
      - watwut 4y ago
        No. Tesla should not use that term because of what that term means everywhere outside of aviation industry. Aviation industry is one small niche. The term autopilot implies autonomous driving everywhere outside of that one small subgroup of people.
        jhgb 4y ago
        "Everywhere outside of aviation industry"? I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I can't avoid a strong feeling that you've just made that up. Where are all the different non-aviation autopilots in the real world we live in that "imply autonomous driving" when that term gets applied to cars? Are there bicycle autopilots? Crane autopilots? Bulldozer autopilots? All of them operating devices fully autonomously with no operator oversight? Because I can't for the life of me recall a real-world usage of the word "autopilot" that could give people the misconception you're alluding to. If there's a wide range of different real-world types of autopilots that almost all require no human attention except for airplane autopilots which do require it, all of them in such widespread use that they justify some people's notion that systems called "autopilots" are operator-free, then I must have completely missed that somehow. Please give me some examples of those different systems if they do exist.

thfuran 4y ago

It's almost as if calling it "autopilot" was wildly irresponsible.

jhgb 4y ago
It's a very appropriate name for something that automates the long boring things while not eliminating a human operator for exciting transient things, just like in an airplane or on a ship. What about it was irresponsible? Sounds like a completely typical autopilot to me.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  What's irresponsible to me is how Tesla has advertised their Autopilot feature for the last six years[1]: > The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware...
  - zaptrem 4y ago
    This is very clearly labeled as an ad for future software capabilities.
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      There is no such "clear" label on the video or website. Tesla titled the page "Tesla Self-Driving Demonstration". Tesla's embedded video is titled "Autopilot Full Self-Driving Hardware (Neighborhood Long)" with a video description that says[1]: > Take a ride in a Tesla with Full Self-Driving Hardware. That's it. Nowhere is it "clearly labeled as an ad for future software capabilities". [1] https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=128712855 https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&...
  - simondotau 4y ago
    > …how Tesla has advertised their Autopilot feature… I don’t see the word autopilot on that page or that video.
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      Look at the URL[1] and then look at the title of the video, which is "Autopilot Full Self-Driving Hardware (Neighborhood Long)"[2]. [1] https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware-neighborhood-long https://www.tesla.com/videos/autopilot-self-driving-hardware... [2] https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&owner=128712855 https://vimeo.com/192179727?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&...
      - simondotau 4y ago
        Fair points, but it doesn't invalidate what I said: I don’t see the word autopilot on that page or that video. And it's not on that page, and it wasn't in the video. The VIMEO video title doesn't appear on embeds.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    Possibly, but notice that this is not what I was responding to, which was purely the naming of the feature. So I'm not sure how this segue is relevant? Do you have anything to comment w/r to the name?
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  When drivers receive as much training as pilots, then it will be reasonable to draw comparisons between autopilot for planes, and autopilot for cars.
  - jhgb 4y ago
    How is this relevant? Autopilots for airplanes don't eliminate human operators. Autopilots for ships don't eliminate human operators. Tesla's autopilot doesn't eliminate human operators either. On basis of that, I would deem the naming as very appropriate, the level of training of the respective required operators notwithstanding.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    That argument makes no sense. Generally speaking, tools are named based on the capability of the tool. We don't make a rule of changing the names of tools based on the predicted skill of the operator.
  - jimmyswimmy 4y ago
    Interesting idea. Pilots require 40 hours minimum to take the certification test, but most need maybe 60 or so. Pretty sure I had a lot more than that for driving. In addition to the state-mandated driving instruction which was probably around 8 hours total (some of it "watching" other student drivers) I'm sure I had a few hundred hours of supervised driving under my belt before taking the test. Outlier? Maybe, but I can't imagine less than the 40-60 hours required for prospective pilots. Also, I don't think student pilots typically train on autopilots. Those kinds of technology components are usually learned either on one's own or with an instructor/co-pilot after completing basic training. The basic pilot training focuses on safe pilotage from takeoff to landing, including land nav and radio communications, and ignores pretty much all modern technology.
- kalleboo 4y ago
  It's a very appropriate name for people who understand aviation, but I've heard A LOT of people over the years say stuff to the effect of "the planes these days can fly themselves, they don't actually need pilots they're just in there due to the unions"
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - simondotau 4y ago
    If the argument was "Tesla shouldn't use the Autopilot name because some people are grossly misinformed about aspects of the aviation industry" then I'd have some sympathy for it. I'd still consider it a poor argument, but at least it's one I could comprehend and respect.
    - thfuran 4y ago
      Not just some people but many people and not just some aspects of the aviation industry but precisely those with are being referenced.
    - watwut 4y ago
      No. Tesla should not use that term because of what that term means everywhere outside of aviation industry. Aviation industry is one small niche. The term autopilot implies autonomous driving everywhere outside of that one small subgroup of people.
      - jhgb 4y ago
        "Everywhere outside of aviation industry"? I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I can't avoid a strong feeling that you've just made that up. Where are all the different non-aviation autopilots in the real world we live in that "imply autonomous driving" when that term gets applied to cars? Are there bicycle autopilots? Crane autopilots? Bulldozer autopilots? All of them operating devices fully autonomously with no operator oversight? Because I can't for the life of me recall a real-world usage of the word "autopilot" that could give people the misconception you're alluding to. If there's a wide range of different real-world types of autopilots that almost all require no human attention except for airplane autopilots which do require it, all of them in such widespread use that they justify some people's notion that systems called "autopilots" are operator-free, then I must have completely missed that somehow. Please give me some examples of those different systems if they do exist.