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That's not true from my perspective as an American. China didn't historically make the same kind of continuing and increasing bellicose actions and claims as th

by rnk 4y ago

That's not true from my perspective as an American. China didn't historically make the same kind of continuing and increasing bellicose actions and claims as they do today. They have grown slowly over time, perhaps as China's military power has increased. Yes 50 years ago there was attacks, but China seems to be more threatened by the emergence of true democracy in Taiwan, and the development of later generations in a more independent societal direction (the people who left mainland China were being replaced/aged out of leadership by people who had never lived in China). My Taiwanese friends have also told me that China has significantly increased their concern for the future.

dirtyid 4y ago
That's certainly a very American perspective. Ongoing PRC claims has been consistent since they were inherited from ROC days. They even fought war in SCS with NVietnam when their military was poverty tier. The reality is PRC rise in region has been EXTREMELY peaceful relative to level military expansion which itself is modest relative to GDP. All while settling 12/14 again, ROC inherited land border disputes with more concessions. PRC has done nothing particularly bellicose except defending claims she inherited, again not of her own making. The only possible except of Senkaku which again also ROC/TW claims. Japan BTW, has border (maritime) disputes with 100% of her neighbours despite being WW2 loser who should have territory constrained by treaty. Meanwhile SCS is a multiparty shit show, even then PRC managed to drop a dash line with North Vietnam when other parties made zero progress. The "peaceful" region rise of PRC is historically unprecedented. There's a reason why western analysts has to bemoan about "grayzone" warfare... because PRC military has been extremely constraint. Even relative to ROC days when TW regularly blockaded military shipping and spent spy missions over PRC territory. TW just coping with reality that military balance has completely shifted in PRC favor. Tranch of US weapon sales to TW in 90s made TW one of the most advanced military powers in the region, but that's been chipped away to the point that TW itself is essentially hopeless regardless of level of US weapon sales. As for being threatened by democracy, like TW broken politics and industrial stagnation outside of semiconductors is regularly memed on mainland. People don't generally look to TW as a model... or SK or JP or even US (anymore). PRC is threatened by renewed TW seccessionism weaponized by US because at the end of the day, the civil war never ended and they consider TW Chinese clay.
- reducesuffering 4y ago
  SCS shitshow is almost 100% on China (sea based) expansionism. One look at their egregious “nine dash line” tells you what you need to know. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
  - dirtyid 4y ago
    Except it tells nothing. Nine dash predates UNCLOS that does not determine sovereignty, and the PCA "rule-based" ad-hoc kangaroo court decision is not recognized by UN, nevermind PRC is not bound by optional UNCLOS arbituational clause, hence PRC has full right to defend her claims. Which again is inherited from ROC and made when other claimaints were decolonialising and not completely sovereign to begin with. It's like big bro inherited dad's house with huge yard from small bro, then later kids of neighbours born after both bros decides chunk of yard should be there's because they made an arbituatry HOA that determined so. Bros laugh. Meaning it's almost 0% on PRC expansionism. PRC cannot expand what they gained formally when UN recognition switched from ROC to PRC. They made no new claims in SCS. And in fact PRC reduced to 9dash from ROCs 11dash means Chinese sea claims shrunk under PRC. Big bro gave their neighbour a few feet of yard when they had good relations from being same book club (PRC to NVietnam). Just like 11/12 land border settlements where PRC ceded more land. By every objective metric China lost more territory under CCP dispute settlement. The opposite of expanisionism, and basically magnanimous by historic standards, huge country like PRC ceding so much territory to neighbours, voluntarily is proposterous. So much so that it's borderline treasonous, average Chinese would riot if they found out during negotiations, luckily this was pre internet. In terms of land reclaimation and militarization, PRC was 5th out of 6 parties to conduct operations on their SCS features. They're just vastly better at it due to infra prowess and sheer PRC scale / resources. Only faultless actor in region is Brunai. And in terms of egregiousness, Vietnam is almost as bad, while claiming substantially more contested features. That's what I know.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by rnk 4y ago

dirtyid 4y ago

That's certainly a very American perspective. Ongoing PRC claims has been consistent since they were inherited from ROC days. They even fought war in SCS with NVietnam when their military was poverty tier. The reality is PRC rise in region has been EXTREMELY peaceful relative to level military expansion which itself is modest relative to GDP. All while settling 12/14 again, ROC inherited land border disputes with more concessions. PRC has done nothing particularly bellicose except defending claims she inherited, again not of her own making. The only possible except of Senkaku which again also ROC/TW claims. Japan BTW, has border (maritime) disputes with 100% of her neighbours despite being WW2 loser who should have territory constrained by treaty. Meanwhile SCS is a multiparty shit show, even then PRC managed to drop a dash line with North Vietnam when other parties made zero progress. The "peaceful" region rise of PRC is historically unprecedented. There's a reason why western analysts has to bemoan about "grayzone" warfare... because PRC military has been extremely constraint. Even relative to ROC days when TW regularly blockaded military shipping and spent spy missions over PRC territory. TW just coping with reality that military balance has completely shifted in PRC favor. Tranch of US weapon sales to TW in 90s made TW one of the most advanced military powers in the region, but that's been chipped away to the point that TW itself is essentially hopeless regardless of level of US weapon sales. As for being threatened by democracy, like TW broken politics and industrial stagnation outside of semiconductors is regularly memed on mainland. People don't generally look to TW as a model... or SK or JP or even US (anymore). PRC is threatened by renewed TW seccessionism weaponized by US because at the end of the day, the civil war never ended and they consider TW Chinese clay.

reducesuffering 4y ago
SCS shitshow is almost 100% on China (sea based) expansionism. One look at their egregious “nine dash line” tells you what you need to know. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-dash_line
- dirtyid 4y ago
  Except it tells nothing. Nine dash predates UNCLOS that does not determine sovereignty, and the PCA "rule-based" ad-hoc kangaroo court decision is not recognized by UN, nevermind PRC is not bound by optional UNCLOS arbituational clause, hence PRC has full right to defend her claims. Which again is inherited from ROC and made when other claimaints were decolonialising and not completely sovereign to begin with. It's like big bro inherited dad's house with huge yard from small bro, then later kids of neighbours born after both bros decides chunk of yard should be there's because they made an arbituatry HOA that determined so. Bros laugh. Meaning it's almost 0% on PRC expansionism. PRC cannot expand what they gained formally when UN recognition switched from ROC to PRC. They made no new claims in SCS. And in fact PRC reduced to 9dash from ROCs 11dash means Chinese sea claims shrunk under PRC. Big bro gave their neighbour a few feet of yard when they had good relations from being same book club (PRC to NVietnam). Just like 11/12 land border settlements where PRC ceded more land. By every objective metric China lost more territory under CCP dispute settlement. The opposite of expanisionism, and basically magnanimous by historic standards, huge country like PRC ceding so much territory to neighbours, voluntarily is proposterous. So much so that it's borderline treasonous, average Chinese would riot if they found out during negotiations, luckily this was pre internet. In terms of land reclaimation and militarization, PRC was 5th out of 6 parties to conduct operations on their SCS features. They're just vastly better at it due to infra prowess and sheer PRC scale / resources. Only faultless actor in region is Brunai. And in terms of egregiousness, Vietnam is almost as bad, while claiming substantially more contested features. That's what I know.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]