6 ms·

This is really great. I especially like the idea of online tutoring (for languages and other stuff) which looks to be a nice cheap option [0]. One piece of adv

This is really great. I especially like the idea of online tutoring (for languages and other stuff) which looks to be a nice cheap option [0]. One piece of advice that I think is actually quite bad, or at least I've had extremely bad experiences with, is asking people for something. I've often cold-emailed artists, programmers and other hobbyists asking them to make their work libre/free (artists CC-BY/CC-BY-SA/CC0, programmers GPL, hobbyists some type of OSH or CERN license) and I don't think I've ever gotten a positive response. The only exception is when I haven't read the documentation in depth and the project is already libre/free. Most times, asking artists or others to put their work under a libre/free license, even if it's decades old, is met with outright hostility. I usually try to couch the "ask" in passive language and signal understanding if they don't want to but, from my limited experience, this only seems to make people angrier. I'm sure there are better ways that I could ask and I'm sure I'm framing it in some way that triggers anger but I also don't think there's an actual good way to ask that from someone to try and get them to put their work under a libre/free license. Talking to people in person is another matter and that I've had good success with, but asking online, through email or otherwise, often ends in them ridiculing me and calling me names. [0] https://www.italki.com/ https://www.italki.com/

leephillips 4y ago
Asking for something is not the same as asking for free stuff. It’s especially not the same as asking someone who is trying to make a living creating things to just start giving them away. It’s not surprising to me that this kind of suggestion is met with hostility.
- abetusk 4y ago
  I have enough of a model of people to understand why there's pushback but at the same time the leap from "asking for something" to "asking something for everyone" doesn't seem like a big one. I also find it confusing how people can use clips from movies, songs etc. not in the public domain or use public domain works outright but not see how contributing to the commons benefits society. I appreciate your comment but my feeling is that a closer understanding is that the overton window is such that fair use, public domain and old work enriching the commons are so taken for granted that people have forgotten how important they are.
  - TFortunato 4y ago
    > The leap from "asking for something" to "asking something for everyone" doesn't seem like a big one. Sorry to reply again, but this is quite surprising to me! I would feel very differently about an individual asking me for a copy of my work for personal use because they couldn't afford it / couldn't find a copy / wanted to learn from it, etc. vs. someone asking me to make my work freely available to all. Regardless of how you feel about the principals behind why someone should do that, I hope you see there are very real differences in what you are asking them to do.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    > the leap from "asking for something" to "asking something for everyone" doesn't seem like a big one. It seems like an enormous leap to me. Imagine I’ve been approached by someone asking for a free license to my software. They’re probably unlikely to pay me anything (whether unwilling or unable doesn’t matter), so my decision has a likely loss to me of $0 and I can decide if I like the proposed project enough to say “sure, why not?!” Contrast that with giving my software away to everyone, including people would would pay the money that I use to buy food and shelter.
swatcoder 4y ago
> One piece of advice that I think is actually quite bad, or at least I've had extremely bad experiences with, is asking people for something. I've often cold-emailed artists, programmers and other hobbyists asking them to make their work libre/free (artists CC-BY/CC-BY-SA/CC0, programmers GPL, hobbyists some type of OSH or CERN license) and I don't think I've ever gotten a positive response. In case you’re interested in constructive feedback, what you’re doing here sounds more like advocating for someone to provide some social good, but couching it in passive language. With you not knowing these people, the ask itself is extremely presumptuous and the approach you describe of using passive language likely lands on them as a passive aggressive maneuver. Many people find that that approach to be manipulative and offensive. If you’d just like personal use for free, you should ask for that directly and maybe share why that would be helpful for you, so that they can approach it as an act of sympathy or charity. If you are invested in the principles of free/libre works, then you should advocate for that directly explain why the principle is so important to you that you’d engage with a stranger about it. In both cases, you’re still likely to get a lot of closed doors and hostile responses, but you would at least be doing these people the kindness of being direct about what you want and why you want it.
- abetusk 4y ago
  Thanks for the feedback. I suspected as much in terms of the passive language being perceived as passive aggressive. I didn't want to come off as aggressive as most of the time I really like the person or their work and I certainly don't want to strong arm them into doing something they don't want to do. I think your advice is good to try and personalize the story and be direct about it. I don't have any illusions that this will be successful but at least it won't fail in the same way. That being said, I can imagine an organization that promotes libre/free work making a blanket email that does just that (I've even read a few myself). The reason is clear because it's the organizations mission and, in that context, direct language would be preferred. Food for though. I do wonder if there is any strategy that would work.
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    > I do wonder if there is any strategy that would work. You’d up the odds a lot if you offered to pay them to relicense the work. It would say a lot that you’re willing to invest in these principles you care about, and would make it easier for them to quantify the change to what they likely see as an asset portfolio. What’s currently a charitable plea becomes a philanthropic negotiation.
marcinzm 4y ago
Artists get asked to do free or barely paid work all the time in my experience. Often because the person asking doesn't want to pay a fair rate for it. Often the person doesn't take a direct no and keeps nagging them. When someone nags you about something for the five thousandth time in your life you tend to be pretty pissy about it. It's a necessary defense mechanism to preserve ones mental well being.
TFortunato 4y ago
Would you be willing to provide examples of the types of works you are asking to be made libre/free? Or provide examples of how you are asking? It's tough to provide advice without knowing what / how you are asking. (No need to name anyone specifically.) I saw from some other responses where you are coming from re: the principals of giving to the commons, and I do sympathize with that in general. On the flip side, I hope you understand that there are many artists and programmers who are asked to work for free / "for exposure" on a daily basis. Exposure and the common good, unfortunately, does not pay the rent. For many folks asking for their work to be given away freely is akin to saying "I feel your work is worthless". Or worse "I feel your work is worth something, but I / the world should be able to benefit from your work without you being compensated for providing me that benefit." Even for folks sympathetic to free/libre principals, being able to give away one's work freely to the world is to be in a position of privilege, where they can work purely for principal of the common good because their own material needs are already being met. For many folks, that simply isn't the case.

leephillips 4y ago

Asking for something is not the same as asking for free stuff. It’s especially not the same as asking someone who is trying to make a living creating things to just start giving them away. It’s not surprising to me that this kind of suggestion is met with hostility.

abetusk 4y ago
I have enough of a model of people to understand why there's pushback but at the same time the leap from "asking for something" to "asking something for everyone" doesn't seem like a big one. I also find it confusing how people can use clips from movies, songs etc. not in the public domain or use public domain works outright but not see how contributing to the commons benefits society. I appreciate your comment but my feeling is that a closer understanding is that the overton window is such that fair use, public domain and old work enriching the commons are so taken for granted that people have forgotten how important they are.
- TFortunato 4y ago
  > The leap from "asking for something" to "asking something for everyone" doesn't seem like a big one. Sorry to reply again, but this is quite surprising to me! I would feel very differently about an individual asking me for a copy of my work for personal use because they couldn't afford it / couldn't find a copy / wanted to learn from it, etc. vs. someone asking me to make my work freely available to all. Regardless of how you feel about the principals behind why someone should do that, I hope you see there are very real differences in what you are asking them to do.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  > the leap from "asking for something" to "asking something for everyone" doesn't seem like a big one. It seems like an enormous leap to me. Imagine I’ve been approached by someone asking for a free license to my software. They’re probably unlikely to pay me anything (whether unwilling or unable doesn’t matter), so my decision has a likely loss to me of $0 and I can decide if I like the proposed project enough to say “sure, why not?!” Contrast that with giving my software away to everyone, including people would would pay the money that I use to buy food and shelter.

swatcoder 4y ago

> One piece of advice that I think is actually quite bad, or at least I've had extremely bad experiences with, is asking people for something. I've often cold-emailed artists, programmers and other hobbyists asking them to make their work libre/free (artists CC-BY/CC-BY-SA/CC0, programmers GPL, hobbyists some type of OSH or CERN license) and I don't think I've ever gotten a positive response. In case you’re interested in constructive feedback, what you’re doing here sounds more like advocating for someone to provide some social good, but couching it in passive language. With you not knowing these people, the ask itself is extremely presumptuous and the approach you describe of using passive language likely lands on them as a passive aggressive maneuver. Many people find that that approach to be manipulative and offensive. If you’d just like personal use for free, you should ask for that directly and maybe share why that would be helpful for you, so that they can approach it as an act of sympathy or charity. If you are invested in the principles of free/libre works, then you should advocate for that directly explain why the principle is so important to you that you’d engage with a stranger about it. In both cases, you’re still likely to get a lot of closed doors and hostile responses, but you would at least be doing these people the kindness of being direct about what you want and why you want it.

abetusk 4y ago
Thanks for the feedback. I suspected as much in terms of the passive language being perceived as passive aggressive. I didn't want to come off as aggressive as most of the time I really like the person or their work and I certainly don't want to strong arm them into doing something they don't want to do. I think your advice is good to try and personalize the story and be direct about it. I don't have any illusions that this will be successful but at least it won't fail in the same way. That being said, I can imagine an organization that promotes libre/free work making a blanket email that does just that (I've even read a few myself). The reason is clear because it's the organizations mission and, in that context, direct language would be preferred. Food for though. I do wonder if there is any strategy that would work.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  > I do wonder if there is any strategy that would work. You’d up the odds a lot if you offered to pay them to relicense the work. It would say a lot that you’re willing to invest in these principles you care about, and would make it easier for them to quantify the change to what they likely see as an asset portfolio. What’s currently a charitable plea becomes a philanthropic negotiation.

marcinzm 4y ago

Artists get asked to do free or barely paid work all the time in my experience. Often because the person asking doesn't want to pay a fair rate for it. Often the person doesn't take a direct no and keeps nagging them. When someone nags you about something for the five thousandth time in your life you tend to be pretty pissy about it. It's a necessary defense mechanism to preserve ones mental well being.

TFortunato 4y ago

Would you be willing to provide examples of the types of works you are asking to be made libre/free? Or provide examples of how you are asking? It's tough to provide advice without knowing what / how you are asking. (No need to name anyone specifically.) I saw from some other responses where you are coming from re: the principals of giving to the commons, and I do sympathize with that in general. On the flip side, I hope you understand that there are many artists and programmers who are asked to work for free / "for exposure" on a daily basis. Exposure and the common good, unfortunately, does not pay the rent. For many folks asking for their work to be given away freely is akin to saying "I feel your work is worthless". Or worse "I feel your work is worth something, but I / the world should be able to benefit from your work without you being compensated for providing me that benefit." Even for folks sympathetic to free/libre principals, being able to give away one's work freely to the world is to be in a position of privilege, where they can work purely for principal of the common good because their own material needs are already being met. For many folks, that simply isn't the case.