43 ms·

Sure, let's blame vaccines in a funny roundabout way, while conveniently ignoring the more probable cause that is COVID. The article seems to suggest that under

by elric 4y ago

Sure, let's blame vaccines in a funny roundabout way, while conveniently ignoring the more probable cause that is COVID. The article seems to suggest that underreported COVID deaths are a likely explanation. You might want to consider broadening the scope of your investigation to include probable causes ...

SoftTalker 4y ago
Why is it fair to entertain speculation about underreported deaths and all kinds of long-tail effects of COVID the disease, but not fair to do the same speculation about the vaccines?
- User23 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - rnk 4y ago
    I'd put it differently. We know that the vaccine absolutely saved millions of lives. Covid directly killed millions of people plus the millions more who have life-long complications from it. The vaccine is like any substance that goes into our bodies, it might have complex interactions with the functioning of the body, just as is true for the foods we eat, the things we encounter in our environment, even aspirin was recently reconsidered as a general thing to take daily. The vaccine has been extensively tested and now we have real world testing with billions of doses given that it is extremely safe. It's hard for people to talk about any potential concerns because of the huge number of people fixated on the fact that it could have other effects (like every single medicine in the world) who constantly make bad faith arguments (you have some sickness and got the vaccine and thus they claim the "obvious" connection). People had difficult to diagnose things like chronic fatigue syndrome before there was ever a covid vaccine and we don't understand those either.
- fastaguy88 4y ago
  Because we know that Covid kills people (more than a million in the US), and there is very little evidence that Covid vaccines have killed people ( likely fewer than 100 deaths in the US).
  - daenz 4y ago
    In your eyes, what would constitute as evidence, and how would it manifest in the world?
  - t0bia_s 4y ago
    How many dead people of covid/vaccine you know personally? That should be more valid source of information for you.
  - logicchains 4y ago
    >Because we know that Covid kills people (more than a million in the US), and there is very little evidence that Covid vaccines have killed people The US VAERS vaccine adverse reporting system reports over ten thousand deaths post covid-vaccine, over two orders of magnitude more than reported for previous vaccines (including the flu vaccines which half of Americans take annually). Now, this does not imply causation, only autopsies can determine that, but for some reason in the US autopsies have not been done. In Germany, renowned pathologist Dr. Peter Schirmacher (acting chairman of the German Society of Pathology, director of the Institute of Pathology at Heidelberg University Hospital, and president of the German Association for the Study of the Liver) did conduct such autopsies, and found that 30-40% of the deaths following soon after vaccination were indeed caused by the vaccine.
    - inferiorhuman 4y ago
      > Now, this does not imply causation Not only does it not imply causation it doesn't even imply correlation. If you got the vaccine and were subsequently hit by a truck you could end up in VAERS. > found that 30-40% of the deaths following soon after vaccination were indeed caused by the vaccine No, they didn't.
  - native_samples 4y ago
- gpu_explorer 4y ago
  Vaccines have been in use for hundreds of years. Fear of vaccines isn't rational. https://historyofvaccines.org/ https://historyofvaccines.org/
halfjoking 4y ago
Covid recovered aren’t having same problems as vaccinated when it comes to heart problems. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/328529 https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/328529 I had long covid 14 months and never heard of myocarditis on forums before the shots. I had chest pain for a while but it was not permanent damage. Myocarditis is permanent damage.
- ljf 4y ago
  My wife had (long) covid induced myocarditis long before we could get our vaccines here I the UK, as did many others on her 'long haulers' slack group. Likely it is more down to the timings of the groups and vaccines, than linked to vaccines
logicchains 4y ago
>Sure, let's blame vaccines in a funny roundabout way, while conveniently ignoring the more probable cause that is COVID. For heart issues in young males at least the more probable cause is actually the vaccine, as per this paper in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z
native_samples 4y ago
Vaccines are by far the most likely cause. Consider this graph of people claiming disability benefits in the USA vs the vaccine rollout: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F436dbfae-956d-4ac0-a6c3-569d811da3c5_1342x1508.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_... Note that it correlates with the start of the vaccine rollout, not the start of COVID. The idea expressed above that it's all "long COVID" doesn't make much sense given that fact. At this point it's very hard to see how it can be under-reported COVID deaths because Omicron mutated to become so much milder. The vaccines however generate large quantities of the more potent Wuhan 2019 spike.
- gpu_explorer 4y ago
  Would you mind explaining the biochemistry of the following statement: "The vaccines however generate large quantities of the more potent Wuhan 2019 spike." Please including at least a few sentences that precisely describe the differences in the structure and chemistry of what you call the "Wuhan 2019 spike" compared to the Omicron spike protein. It would be great if you could also explain specifically how differences between the structure and chemistry of the "Wuhan 2019 spike" and the Omicron spike protein support the allegations you're making. Do you think differences in spike protein structure and chemistry have implications for immune system modulation via signaling molecules? If so, which signaling molecules and which cell lines?
  - native_samples 4y ago
    "Please including at least a few sentences that precisely describe the differences in the structure and chemistry of what you call the "Wuhan 2019 spike" compared to the Omicron spike protein." Huh, OK. Odd question though. Isn't this widely covered in the press? The vaccines code for the spike protein lifted from the original 2019 RNA sequencing reported by China. They were never adapted, all boosters are just more of the original. Omicron is highly mutated compared to both the 2019 strain and Delta. It has something like 40-odd mutations in the spike alone. Above you claim these are "allegations" but that's really weird. These are well known facts disputed by nobody, as far as I know. It's not some anti-vax talking point. Go read the documents submitted to regulators if you like. The chemistry of the mRNA vaccines is public, there's a good explanation of the microbiology here: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source... "Do you think differences in spike protein structure and chemistry have implications for immune system modulation via signaling molecules? If so, which signaling molecules and which cell lines?" Well, this feels like a hostile question but whatever, I'll roll with it. At least you're engaging, which is better than most people with stars in their eyes about these things. Omicron is materially different in ways that make the vaccines ineffective. This is one of at least three known reasons why case numbers in 2022 are much higher than in 2021/2020 despite everyone having taken a vaccine marketed as 95% effective. The three reasons (that I know of) are: 1. Antibodies to Wuhan spike fail to dock properly to Omicron spike, but the vaccine trains us to produce Wuhan spike. https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abn7760 https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abn7760 (this paper also describes the mutations saying there are 37 but the numbers I've seen vary, not sure why) 2. The 95% effectiveness number was most likely never true, as the trials had at least (a) design errors that were guaranteed to create the appearance of effectiveness in literally any substance (even water), and (b) trial fraud which is now only coming to light, in particular for Pfizer at the Argentina site. 3. The vaccines are triggering something called OAS, which is a form of imprinting. Immune systems repeatedly exposed to the vaccine over-train and start producing antibodies to the Wuhan-2019 spike even when challenged with Omicron, delaying the bodies initial response and meaning that people can get repeatedly sick with Omicron, over and over, without building proper immunity. The memory subsystem of the immune system just doesn't seem 100% precise, or maybe it's not meant to be, but whatever the reason it's been proven during the Moderna Omicron vaccine trials that this has happened (previously vaccinated people produced the wrong antibodies when injected with Omicron vaccine, which has delayed approval). This effect has been known about for decades but is poorly understood, and the risk of creating it simply wasn't considered during vaccine design or rollout. So whilst that's not an explanation at the level of individual signalling molecules, it is an explanation in terms of immune system biology. Hope that satisfies.

by elric 4y ago

SoftTalker 4y ago

Why is it fair to entertain speculation about underreported deaths and all kinds of long-tail effects of COVID the disease, but not fair to do the same speculation about the vaccines?

User23 4y ago
[flagged]
- rnk 4y ago
  I'd put it differently. We know that the vaccine absolutely saved millions of lives. Covid directly killed millions of people plus the millions more who have life-long complications from it. The vaccine is like any substance that goes into our bodies, it might have complex interactions with the functioning of the body, just as is true for the foods we eat, the things we encounter in our environment, even aspirin was recently reconsidered as a general thing to take daily. The vaccine has been extensively tested and now we have real world testing with billions of doses given that it is extremely safe. It's hard for people to talk about any potential concerns because of the huge number of people fixated on the fact that it could have other effects (like every single medicine in the world) who constantly make bad faith arguments (you have some sickness and got the vaccine and thus they claim the "obvious" connection). People had difficult to diagnose things like chronic fatigue syndrome before there was ever a covid vaccine and we don't understand those either.
fastaguy88 4y ago
Because we know that Covid kills people (more than a million in the US), and there is very little evidence that Covid vaccines have killed people ( likely fewer than 100 deaths in the US).
- daenz 4y ago
  In your eyes, what would constitute as evidence, and how would it manifest in the world?
- t0bia_s 4y ago
  How many dead people of covid/vaccine you know personally? That should be more valid source of information for you.
- logicchains 4y ago
  >Because we know that Covid kills people (more than a million in the US), and there is very little evidence that Covid vaccines have killed people The US VAERS vaccine adverse reporting system reports over ten thousand deaths post covid-vaccine, over two orders of magnitude more than reported for previous vaccines (including the flu vaccines which half of Americans take annually). Now, this does not imply causation, only autopsies can determine that, but for some reason in the US autopsies have not been done. In Germany, renowned pathologist Dr. Peter Schirmacher (acting chairman of the German Society of Pathology, director of the Institute of Pathology at Heidelberg University Hospital, and president of the German Association for the Study of the Liver) did conduct such autopsies, and found that 30-40% of the deaths following soon after vaccination were indeed caused by the vaccine.
  - inferiorhuman 4y ago
    > Now, this does not imply causation Not only does it not imply causation it doesn't even imply correlation. If you got the vaccine and were subsequently hit by a truck you could end up in VAERS. > found that 30-40% of the deaths following soon after vaccination were indeed caused by the vaccine No, they didn't.
- native_samples 4y ago
gpu_explorer 4y ago
Vaccines have been in use for hundreds of years. Fear of vaccines isn't rational. https://historyofvaccines.org/ https://historyofvaccines.org/

halfjoking 4y ago

Covid recovered aren’t having same problems as vaccinated when it comes to heart problems. https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/328529 https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/328529 I had long covid 14 months and never heard of myocarditis on forums before the shots. I had chest pain for a while but it was not permanent damage. Myocarditis is permanent damage.

ljf 4y ago
My wife had (long) covid induced myocarditis long before we could get our vaccines here I the UK, as did many others on her 'long haulers' slack group. Likely it is more down to the timings of the groups and vaccines, than linked to vaccines

logicchains 4y ago

>Sure, let's blame vaccines in a funny roundabout way, while conveniently ignoring the more probable cause that is COVID. For heart issues in young males at least the more probable cause is actually the vaccine, as per this paper in Nature: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-10928-z

native_samples 4y ago

Vaccines are by far the most likely cause. Consider this graph of people claiming disability benefits in the USA vs the vaccine rollout: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F436dbfae-956d-4ac0-a6c3-569d811da3c5_1342x1508.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_... Note that it correlates with the start of the vaccine rollout, not the start of COVID. The idea expressed above that it's all "long COVID" doesn't make much sense given that fact. At this point it's very hard to see how it can be under-reported COVID deaths because Omicron mutated to become so much milder. The vaccines however generate large quantities of the more potent Wuhan 2019 spike.

gpu_explorer 4y ago
Would you mind explaining the biochemistry of the following statement: "The vaccines however generate large quantities of the more potent Wuhan 2019 spike." Please including at least a few sentences that precisely describe the differences in the structure and chemistry of what you call the "Wuhan 2019 spike" compared to the Omicron spike protein. It would be great if you could also explain specifically how differences between the structure and chemistry of the "Wuhan 2019 spike" and the Omicron spike protein support the allegations you're making. Do you think differences in spike protein structure and chemistry have implications for immune system modulation via signaling molecules? If so, which signaling molecules and which cell lines?
- native_samples 4y ago
  "Please including at least a few sentences that precisely describe the differences in the structure and chemistry of what you call the "Wuhan 2019 spike" compared to the Omicron spike protein." Huh, OK. Odd question though. Isn't this widely covered in the press? The vaccines code for the spike protein lifted from the original 2019 RNA sequencing reported by China. They were never adapted, all boosters are just more of the original. Omicron is highly mutated compared to both the 2019 strain and Delta. It has something like 40-odd mutations in the spike alone. Above you claim these are "allegations" but that's really weird. These are well known facts disputed by nobody, as far as I know. It's not some anti-vax talking point. Go read the documents submitted to regulators if you like. The chemistry of the mRNA vaccines is public, there's a good explanation of the microbiology here: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/ https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source... "Do you think differences in spike protein structure and chemistry have implications for immune system modulation via signaling molecules? If so, which signaling molecules and which cell lines?" Well, this feels like a hostile question but whatever, I'll roll with it. At least you're engaging, which is better than most people with stars in their eyes about these things. Omicron is materially different in ways that make the vaccines ineffective. This is one of at least three known reasons why case numbers in 2022 are much higher than in 2021/2020 despite everyone having taken a vaccine marketed as 95% effective. The three reasons (that I know of) are: 1. Antibodies to Wuhan spike fail to dock properly to Omicron spike, but the vaccine trains us to produce Wuhan spike. https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abn7760 https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abn7760 (this paper also describes the mutations saying there are 37 but the numbers I've seen vary, not sure why) 2. The 95% effectiveness number was most likely never true, as the trials had at least (a) design errors that were guaranteed to create the appearance of effectiveness in literally any substance (even water), and (b) trial fraud which is now only coming to light, in particular for Pfizer at the Argentina site. 3. The vaccines are triggering something called OAS, which is a form of imprinting. Immune systems repeatedly exposed to the vaccine over-train and start producing antibodies to the Wuhan-2019 spike even when challenged with Omicron, delaying the bodies initial response and meaning that people can get repeatedly sick with Omicron, over and over, without building proper immunity. The memory subsystem of the immune system just doesn't seem 100% precise, or maybe it's not meant to be, but whatever the reason it's been proven during the Moderna Omicron vaccine trials that this has happened (previously vaccinated people produced the wrong antibodies when injected with Omicron vaccine, which has delayed approval). This effect has been known about for decades but is poorly understood, and the risk of creating it simply wasn't considered during vaccine design or rollout. So whilst that's not an explanation at the level of individual signalling molecules, it is an explanation in terms of immune system biology. Hope that satisfies.