12 ms·

So what happens is 1. Speed straight towards your doom. 2. Give back control a moment before collision, when it realizes it fucked up. 3. "It was the driver'

by lawn 4y ago

So what happens is 1. Speed straight towards your doom. 2. Give back control a moment before collision, when it realizes it fucked up. 3. "It was the driver's fault"

heretogetout 4y ago
Exactly as predicted by many, many skeptics. Of course that's what his statement meant.
epgui 4y ago
If you read the actual report, you will see that NHTSA actually acknowledges that autopilot makes things safer overall, and they agree that crashes are due to misuse of the software. They highlight that on average, when there was a crash, the driver should have been able to recognize the hazard ~8 seconds in advance.
- lazide 4y ago
  The challenge of course is what level of misuse is to be expected (especially once it becomes more widely available), and if using the software with normal levels of misuse results in an overall safer level of driving than without it.
  - epgui 4y ago
    It appears to be so: misuse is included in the overall safety assessment. But this is exactly the position of NHTSA in the report. They say that if Tesla can reasonably do something to mitigate misuse, then they should. That’s what this is about.
    - lazide 4y ago
      My point is: 1) This is currently limited to a pretty restricted market (people who drive Teslas, which is a small subset of car drivers). When used more widely by a wider set of people, it may have a worse track record. 2) It isn't clear that such misuse has reasonable mitigations that will continue to make it attractive to use. But it's all speculation at this point.
- CSMastermind 4y ago
  > If you read the actual report, you will see that NHTSA actually acknowledges that autopilot makes things safer overall Where does it say that in the report? > and they agree that crashes are due to misuse of the software I also do not see this in the report other than acknowledging that is Tesla's stance. In fact, they explicitly reject that as a defense, to quote: "A driver’s use or misuse of vehicle components, or operation of a vehicle in an unintended manner does not necessarily preclude a system defect. This is particularly the case if the driver behavior in question is foreseeable in light of the system’s design or operation." > They highlight that on average, when there was a crash, the driver should have been able to recognize the hazard ~8 seconds in advance That's simply not what the report says. Here's the passage you're referencing: "Where incident video was available, the approach to the first responder scene would have been visible to the driver an average of 8 seconds leading up to impact." _Except_ you're leaving out some extremely important context. 1. This sentence is part of the expository section of the report, it's in no way "highlighted". 2. This is referring only to 11 specific collisions in which Teslas struck first responders, not the other 191 collisions they examined. I've seen some other things you've said in this thread so I feel like I should address those as well. > this is only autopilot not FSD. To quote the report: "Each of these crashes involved a report of a Tesla vehicle operating one of its Autopilot versions (Autopilot or Full-Self Driving, or associated Tesla features such as Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, Autosteer, Navigate on Autopilot, and Auto Lane Change)." > this will be fixed by an over the airwaves update. I see nowhere in the report that says this. In fact as far as I can tell from reading it the report says they're upgrading and escalating their investigation because of the seriousness of the concerns. Here's the report's conclusion in its entirety: "Accordingly, PE21-020 is upgraded to an Engineering Analysis to extend the existing crash analysis, evaluate additional data sets, perform vehicle evaluations, and to explore the degree to which Autopilot and associated Tesla systems may exacerbate human factors or behavioral safety risks by undermining the effectiveness of the driver’s supervision. In doing so, NHTSA plans to continue its assessment of vehicle control authority, driver engagement technologies, and related human factors considerations." Actual report here for those curious: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-EA22002-3184.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-EA22002-3184.PDF And for those who don't here's the best summary I can provide. * The government received 11 reports of Teslas striking first responders with autopilot engaged. * After an initial investigation of these reports they deemed them serious enough to open a broader investigation into the technology. * They found 191 cases where vehicles using the technology crashed unexpectedly. * Of those 85 were dismissed because of external factors or lack of data (leaving 106). * Of those "approximately half" could be attributed to drivers not paying attention, not having their hands on the wheel, or not responding to vehicle attention prompts. * Of the 106 "approximately a quarter" could be attributed to operating the system in environments where it's not fully supported, such as rain, snow, or ice. * That leaves 37 cases where it appears the cars malfunctioned, both not prompting the driver and not taking preventative action like braking until it was too late to avoid the crash or not at all. * As a result, the NHTSA is escalating their investigation to do an engineering analysis of these systems looking to better understand the defects.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zozbot234 4y ago
Plot twist: it's always the driver's fault. Autopilot is glorified cruise control (the technical term is 'Level 2' on the SAE scale). It literally doesn't matter when Autopilot bails out altogether (even if it manages to automatically avert a crash on other occasions), the driver must be fully in control at all times. Would you trust your cruise control to prevent a collision? Of course not, that would be crazy. It's not what it's built for. What a worthless discussion.
- legalcorrection 4y ago
  The problem is that people can’t actually take over fast enough necessarily. If you’re not actively driving, then you can’t just immediately react.
  - epgui 4y ago
    The NHTSA report says that on average, an attentive driver would have been able to react 8 seconds before the crash. 8 seconds is a lot of time on the highway (where autopilot can be used).
    - freeflight 4y ago
      Yet the autopilot system chose to only warn the drivers 1 second before impact, which is basically no time at all to react to anything. So if those 8 seconds of "autopilot ain't too sure" actually exist, then the car needs to signal that to the driver so the driver can be ready to take over. The fact it still doesn't do that, speaks volumes about the kind of "progress" Tesla seems to be making, none of it good.
      - zozbot234 4y ago
        The crashes were not of a kind that Autopilot could have detected earlier. Several involved stationary objects, that Autopilot seems to intentionally ignore because it can't tell apart what's actually in the way of the car from harmless features of the surroundings that will never cause a collision. Which just goes to prove: Autopilot = glorified cruise control. You must never expect it to keep you safe.

by lawn 4y ago

So what happens is 1. Speed straight towards your doom. 2. Give back control a moment before collision, when it realizes it fucked up. 3. "It was the driver's fault"

heretogetout 4y ago

Exactly as predicted by many, many skeptics. Of course that's what his statement meant.

epgui 4y ago

If you read the actual report, you will see that NHTSA actually acknowledges that autopilot makes things safer overall, and they agree that crashes are due to misuse of the software. They highlight that on average, when there was a crash, the driver should have been able to recognize the hazard ~8 seconds in advance.

lazide 4y ago
The challenge of course is what level of misuse is to be expected (especially once it becomes more widely available), and if using the software with normal levels of misuse results in an overall safer level of driving than without it.
- epgui 4y ago
  It appears to be so: misuse is included in the overall safety assessment. But this is exactly the position of NHTSA in the report. They say that if Tesla can reasonably do something to mitigate misuse, then they should. That’s what this is about.
  - lazide 4y ago
    My point is: 1) This is currently limited to a pretty restricted market (people who drive Teslas, which is a small subset of car drivers). When used more widely by a wider set of people, it may have a worse track record. 2) It isn't clear that such misuse has reasonable mitigations that will continue to make it attractive to use. But it's all speculation at this point.
CSMastermind 4y ago
> If you read the actual report, you will see that NHTSA actually acknowledges that autopilot makes things safer overall Where does it say that in the report? > and they agree that crashes are due to misuse of the software I also do not see this in the report other than acknowledging that is Tesla's stance. In fact, they explicitly reject that as a defense, to quote: "A driver’s use or misuse of vehicle components, or operation of a vehicle in an unintended manner does not necessarily preclude a system defect. This is particularly the case if the driver behavior in question is foreseeable in light of the system’s design or operation." > They highlight that on average, when there was a crash, the driver should have been able to recognize the hazard ~8 seconds in advance That's simply not what the report says. Here's the passage you're referencing: "Where incident video was available, the approach to the first responder scene would have been visible to the driver an average of 8 seconds leading up to impact." _Except_ you're leaving out some extremely important context. 1. This sentence is part of the expository section of the report, it's in no way "highlighted". 2. This is referring only to 11 specific collisions in which Teslas struck first responders, not the other 191 collisions they examined. I've seen some other things you've said in this thread so I feel like I should address those as well. > this is only autopilot not FSD. To quote the report: "Each of these crashes involved a report of a Tesla vehicle operating one of its Autopilot versions (Autopilot or Full-Self Driving, or associated Tesla features such as Traffic-Aware Cruise Control, Autosteer, Navigate on Autopilot, and Auto Lane Change)." > this will be fixed by an over the airwaves update. I see nowhere in the report that says this. In fact as far as I can tell from reading it the report says they're upgrading and escalating their investigation because of the seriousness of the concerns. Here's the report's conclusion in its entirety: "Accordingly, PE21-020 is upgraded to an Engineering Analysis to extend the existing crash analysis, evaluate additional data sets, perform vehicle evaluations, and to explore the degree to which Autopilot and associated Tesla systems may exacerbate human factors or behavioral safety risks by undermining the effectiveness of the driver’s supervision. In doing so, NHTSA plans to continue its assessment of vehicle control authority, driver engagement technologies, and related human factors considerations." Actual report here for those curious: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-EA22002-3184.PDF https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INOA-EA22002-3184.PDF And for those who don't here's the best summary I can provide. * The government received 11 reports of Teslas striking first responders with autopilot engaged. * After an initial investigation of these reports they deemed them serious enough to open a broader investigation into the technology. * They found 191 cases where vehicles using the technology crashed unexpectedly. * Of those 85 were dismissed because of external factors or lack of data (leaving 106). * Of those "approximately half" could be attributed to drivers not paying attention, not having their hands on the wheel, or not responding to vehicle attention prompts. * Of the 106 "approximately a quarter" could be attributed to operating the system in environments where it's not fully supported, such as rain, snow, or ice. * That leaves 37 cases where it appears the cars malfunctioned, both not prompting the driver and not taking preventative action like braking until it was too late to avoid the crash or not at all. * As a result, the NHTSA is escalating their investigation to do an engineering analysis of these systems looking to better understand the defects.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zozbot234 4y ago

Plot twist: it's always the driver's fault. Autopilot is glorified cruise control (the technical term is 'Level 2' on the SAE scale). It literally doesn't matter when Autopilot bails out altogether (even if it manages to automatically avert a crash on other occasions), the driver must be fully in control at all times. Would you trust your cruise control to prevent a collision? Of course not, that would be crazy. It's not what it's built for. What a worthless discussion.

legalcorrection 4y ago
The problem is that people can’t actually take over fast enough necessarily. If you’re not actively driving, then you can’t just immediately react.
- epgui 4y ago
  The NHTSA report says that on average, an attentive driver would have been able to react 8 seconds before the crash. 8 seconds is a lot of time on the highway (where autopilot can be used).
  - freeflight 4y ago
    Yet the autopilot system chose to only warn the drivers 1 second before impact, which is basically no time at all to react to anything. So if those 8 seconds of "autopilot ain't too sure" actually exist, then the car needs to signal that to the driver so the driver can be ready to take over. The fact it still doesn't do that, speaks volumes about the kind of "progress" Tesla seems to be making, none of it good.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      The crashes were not of a kind that Autopilot could have detected earlier. Several involved stationary objects, that Autopilot seems to intentionally ignore because it can't tell apart what's actually in the way of the car from harmless features of the surroundings that will never cause a collision. Which just goes to prove: Autopilot = glorified cruise control. You must never expect it to keep you safe.