3 ms·

> We can desire a better world than these two opposite poles. I don't disagree, but if you ask me which of these two evils I would prefer, I would always pick

> We can desire a better world than these two opposite poles. I don't disagree, but if you ask me which of these two evils I would prefer, I would always pick the peaceful one. > people die in quiet desperation To me this seems a much more dignified way to die than in a fit of mad violence, trying to take what isn't yours.

woodruffw 4y ago
Every human being wants peace and order. The question is the cost: you shouldn’t support Mussolini because he makes the trains run on time. Japan has made a cynical bargain: peace and order are worth an astronomical suicide rate and a civic ethos that prefers clean streets over individual lives. It’s their bargain to make, but it isn’t one that’s compatible with a plural society like ours. And likewise: everybody wants dignity. But I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment.
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  > Every human being wants peace and order. The whole problem here is that this isn't true. Some significant majority of us do. But there is enough of a minority who are content with violence and chaos as to totally destroy peace and order if they are left unchecked. This is true basically any place criminality is studied. The only remaining question is how do we deal with this minority? As someone without aggressive inclinations, I'm don't have sympathy or regard for those who display them. As a matter of primacy, I would like to live in a peaceful society. Anyone who violates this basic social contract has lost their humanity in my eyes. I would not object to their summary execution (in cases of absolute certainty of guilt), much as dangerous animals are routinely euthanized. The maintenance of civilized order, and resolution of conflict via due process, are the only things distinguishing people from animals. This isn't remotely comparable to making the trains run on time. > I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment. To me there is nothing more dignified than being unwilling to impose yourself on others. If no one wants to help you, and you cannot continue on your own, then taking your own life is the only dignified course, given the alternatives.
  - qzw 4y ago
    > As someone without aggressive inclinations, I'm don't have sympathy or regard for those who display them. As a matter of primacy, I would like to live in a peaceful society. Anyone who violates this basic social contract has lost their humanity in my eyes. I would not object to their summary execution (in cases of absolute certainty of guilt), much as dangerous animals are routinely euthanized. Then you would’ve euthanized nearly all of Japan circa WWII, since their widely popular militaristic regime committed countless atrocities across Asia/Pacific and shattered peaceful society for millions around the world.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    I say this as respectfully as possible: you need to perform some serious introspection. You just told me in the same paragraph that you are “without aggressive inclinations” and would not object to “summary executions” of people you deem unworthy.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      It seems pretty clear that I was advocating a position of nonaggression, not nonviolence. I think extreme escalation of violence is the most effective response to aggression. > people you deem unworthy I'm not deeming anyone "unworthy". I'm just pointing out that humans who act literally like dangerous animals should be treated as such. To me, humanity is a mode of behaviour, not an irrevocable trait.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        Splitting hairs vis-a-vis "aggression" and "violence" might work well in your libertarian circles, but it doesn't impress the rest of us. What you're describing is murdering homeless drug addicts because you think they're dangerous, despite their primary danger being to themselves (and, indirectly, our ability to humanize others.) I eagerly await your application of the same logic to tailpipe emissions.
        thegrimmest 4y ago
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  Assisted suicide is a dignified way to die. It is far more dignified than rotting away in some dilapidated "elder care" and kept alive only so that the said "caregivers" can continue leeching away at your lifetime's savings as the cost of "ongoing care".
ravishi 4y ago
Says the one dying or the one judging them as a nuisance?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

woodruffw 4y ago

Every human being wants peace and order. The question is the cost: you shouldn’t support Mussolini because he makes the trains run on time. Japan has made a cynical bargain: peace and order are worth an astronomical suicide rate and a civic ethos that prefers clean streets over individual lives. It’s their bargain to make, but it isn’t one that’s compatible with a plural society like ours. And likewise: everybody wants dignity. But I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment.

thegrimmest 4y ago
> Every human being wants peace and order. The whole problem here is that this isn't true. Some significant majority of us do. But there is enough of a minority who are content with violence and chaos as to totally destroy peace and order if they are left unchecked. This is true basically any place criminality is studied. The only remaining question is how do we deal with this minority? As someone without aggressive inclinations, I'm don't have sympathy or regard for those who display them. As a matter of primacy, I would like to live in a peaceful society. Anyone who violates this basic social contract has lost their humanity in my eyes. I would not object to their summary execution (in cases of absolute certainty of guilt), much as dangerous animals are routinely euthanized. The maintenance of civilized order, and resolution of conflict via due process, are the only things distinguishing people from animals. This isn't remotely comparable to making the trains run on time. > I don’t see anything particularly dignified in suicides of shame or abandonment. To me there is nothing more dignified than being unwilling to impose yourself on others. If no one wants to help you, and you cannot continue on your own, then taking your own life is the only dignified course, given the alternatives.
- qzw 4y ago
  > As someone without aggressive inclinations, I'm don't have sympathy or regard for those who display them. As a matter of primacy, I would like to live in a peaceful society. Anyone who violates this basic social contract has lost their humanity in my eyes. I would not object to their summary execution (in cases of absolute certainty of guilt), much as dangerous animals are routinely euthanized. Then you would’ve euthanized nearly all of Japan circa WWII, since their widely popular militaristic regime committed countless atrocities across Asia/Pacific and shattered peaceful society for millions around the world.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  I say this as respectfully as possible: you need to perform some serious introspection. You just told me in the same paragraph that you are “without aggressive inclinations” and would not object to “summary executions” of people you deem unworthy.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    It seems pretty clear that I was advocating a position of nonaggression, not nonviolence. I think extreme escalation of violence is the most effective response to aggression. > people you deem unworthy I'm not deeming anyone "unworthy". I'm just pointing out that humans who act literally like dangerous animals should be treated as such. To me, humanity is a mode of behaviour, not an irrevocable trait.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Splitting hairs vis-a-vis "aggression" and "violence" might work well in your libertarian circles, but it doesn't impress the rest of us. What you're describing is murdering homeless drug addicts because you think they're dangerous, despite their primary danger being to themselves (and, indirectly, our ability to humanize others.) I eagerly await your application of the same logic to tailpipe emissions.
      - thegrimmest 4y ago
RestlessMind 4y ago
Assisted suicide is a dignified way to die. It is far more dignified than rotting away in some dilapidated "elder care" and kept alive only so that the said "caregivers" can continue leeching away at your lifetime's savings as the cost of "ongoing care".

ravishi 4y ago

Says the one dying or the one judging them as a nuisance?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]