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I'm also skeptical of the business model for public EV charging. I forsee a huge bait+switch, with sky-high prices once enough people have invested in an EV an

I'm also skeptical of the business model for public EV charging. I forsee a huge bait+switch, with sky-high prices once enough people have invested in an EV and are dependent on the service, and once the charging service providers have built up local monopolies on public charging.

Adraghast 4y ago
Would you be in favor of charging infrastructure being run as a public utility?
- bluescrn 4y ago
  That's probably a better option. It won't be long before there's heavy taxes on EV charging, to make up for the lost fuel tax revenue. Were're not going to escape governments taking their cut, but if we can prevent a big slice of the revenue from going directly into private pockets, that'd be a good thing.
  - supertrope 4y ago
    Governments pay for roads with fuel taxes, vehicle registration fees, and general tax revenue since the first two are not enough. Delaware gets 80% cost recovery through user fees, while Alaska brings up the rear at 20%. How we pay for roads is a political choice. Some states are adding punitive EV and hybrid registration fees that are equivalent to a fuel tax paid for a 13 MPG truck. They provide the justification that fuel tax needs to be fully replaced, EVs are heavier vehicles causing more road wear, and since EV owners are wealthier on average it's a progressive tax.
pengaru 4y ago
It's hard to have a predatory monopoly on something anyone can produce directly from something as widely available as sunlight. This isn't finite black gold pumped from select regions of the globe, transported and refined with substantial large-scale hazards at every step. If charging station prices skyrocketed, competition would appear overnight with chargers popping up in every available parking space until the prices stabilized at something reasonable enough for sustaining the industry at a FMV.
- throw-nocoiner 4y ago
  Sorry, this just empirically isn't true. Tesla raised supercharging prices 50% overnight without a whimper in my country, while another EV charging chain raised AC rates 100% just because they can. Two years later, neither of them went bankrupt as a result, nor did any competition undercut them In theory, anyone can open a new charging station. Also, in theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice - they are not. In the real world, economies of scale and supply chain limitations basically guarantee an outcome of oligopolies coalescing into a silent cartel, each of them happily milking their 5-10% margins without any desire to rock the boat.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    They can raise prices all they want. Right now, they are just affecting the “rich people who have EVs” and not us “normal people”. I never knew the prices increased and not did I care. Still don’t, actually. But if I was affected, I would probably do something about it because I do care about keeping my costs low.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    I don't understand how one can empirically observe this when EVs haven't yet become the dominant vehicle on the road. Tesla's are rather niche, as a percentage of vehicles on the road it's insignificant. There's not enough demand yet. Tesla drivers are still largely well-heeled early adopters of a luxury brand, of course they're going to be exploited.
    - natch 4y ago
      It’s not a luxury brand. It is a high tech brand with a few luxury features. I bought a Tesla as a frugal move to save money in the long run, not to spend more, and so far it’s working. The up front investment is higher but the long term costs are lower. If you think in purely purchase money terms you can trick yourself to think a Yugo or Skoda or Yaris or Leaf etc. is cheaper, but I factor in safety and fun, so my calculation differs.
- bluescrn 4y ago

Adraghast 4y ago

Would you be in favor of charging infrastructure being run as a public utility?

bluescrn 4y ago
That's probably a better option. It won't be long before there's heavy taxes on EV charging, to make up for the lost fuel tax revenue. Were're not going to escape governments taking their cut, but if we can prevent a big slice of the revenue from going directly into private pockets, that'd be a good thing.
- supertrope 4y ago
  Governments pay for roads with fuel taxes, vehicle registration fees, and general tax revenue since the first two are not enough. Delaware gets 80% cost recovery through user fees, while Alaska brings up the rear at 20%. How we pay for roads is a political choice. Some states are adding punitive EV and hybrid registration fees that are equivalent to a fuel tax paid for a 13 MPG truck. They provide the justification that fuel tax needs to be fully replaced, EVs are heavier vehicles causing more road wear, and since EV owners are wealthier on average it's a progressive tax.

pengaru 4y ago

It's hard to have a predatory monopoly on something anyone can produce directly from something as widely available as sunlight. This isn't finite black gold pumped from select regions of the globe, transported and refined with substantial large-scale hazards at every step. If charging station prices skyrocketed, competition would appear overnight with chargers popping up in every available parking space until the prices stabilized at something reasonable enough for sustaining the industry at a FMV.

throw-nocoiner 4y ago
Sorry, this just empirically isn't true. Tesla raised supercharging prices 50% overnight without a whimper in my country, while another EV charging chain raised AC rates 100% just because they can. Two years later, neither of them went bankrupt as a result, nor did any competition undercut them In theory, anyone can open a new charging station. Also, in theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice - they are not. In the real world, economies of scale and supply chain limitations basically guarantee an outcome of oligopolies coalescing into a silent cartel, each of them happily milking their 5-10% margins without any desire to rock the boat.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  They can raise prices all they want. Right now, they are just affecting the “rich people who have EVs” and not us “normal people”. I never knew the prices increased and not did I care. Still don’t, actually. But if I was affected, I would probably do something about it because I do care about keeping my costs low.
- pengaru 4y ago
  I don't understand how one can empirically observe this when EVs haven't yet become the dominant vehicle on the road. Tesla's are rather niche, as a percentage of vehicles on the road it's insignificant. There's not enough demand yet. Tesla drivers are still largely well-heeled early adopters of a luxury brand, of course they're going to be exploited.
  - natch 4y ago
    It’s not a luxury brand. It is a high tech brand with a few luxury features. I bought a Tesla as a frugal move to save money in the long run, not to spend more, and so far it’s working. The up front investment is higher but the long term costs are lower. If you think in purely purchase money terms you can trick yourself to think a Yugo or Skoda or Yaris or Leaf etc. is cheaper, but I factor in safety and fun, so my calculation differs.
bluescrn 4y ago