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It feels like the plan has always been to price the working class off the roads, with no alternative beyond walking or cycling. But if so, they underestimated
by bluescrn 4y ago
It feels like the plan has always been to price the working class off the roads, with no alternative beyond walking or cycling.
But if so, they underestimated how much this could cripple economies.
When you've got the elite/ruling-class flying in to climate conferences on dozens of private jets, it's clear who isn't going to modify their lifestyle for the sake of the environment.
EVs will remain luxuries for the relatively wealthy. You need a spacious home with a garage or at least a driveway if you want to charge at home. No luck if you're in an apartment. And there's still no sign of serious efforts to build charging infrastructure on a 'for the masses' scale, despite bans on new ICE cars planned for less than a decade from now.
(If we get to the point of fully-autonomous self-driving taxis being a thing - they'll be owned in bulk by the super-rich and their corporations, not by regular individuals. It'll probably be illegal for a regular citizen to operate such a service, even when the tech is ubiquitous)
- chki 4y ago>And there's still no sign of serious efforts to build charging infrastructure on a 'for the masses' scale It's not enough but there are 2,000 EV charging stations installed in the EU every week. 10,000 would be better but we're not even one order of magnitude off the target.
- bluescrn 4y agoI'm also skeptical of the business model for public EV charging. I forsee a huge bait+switch, with sky-high prices once enough people have invested in an EV and are dependent on the service, and once the charging service providers have built up local monopolies on public charging.
- Adraghast 4y agoWould you be in favor of charging infrastructure being run as a public utility?
- bluescrn 4y agoThat's probably a better option. It won't be long before there's heavy taxes on EV charging, to make up for the lost fuel tax revenue. Were're not going to escape governments taking their cut, but if we can prevent a big slice of the revenue from going directly into private pockets, that'd be a good thing.
- supertrope 4y agoGovernments pay for roads with fuel taxes, vehicle registration fees, and general tax revenue since the first two are not enough. Delaware gets 80% cost recovery through user fees, while Alaska brings up the rear at 20%. How we pay for roads is a political choice. Some states are adding punitive EV and hybrid registration fees that are equivalent to a fuel tax paid for a 13 MPG truck. They provide the justification that fuel tax needs to be fully replaced, EVs are heavier vehicles causing more road wear, and since EV owners are wealthier on average it's a progressive tax.
- pengaru 4y agoIt's hard to have a predatory monopoly on something anyone can produce directly from something as widely available as sunlight. This isn't finite black gold pumped from select regions of the globe, transported and refined with substantial large-scale hazards at every step. If charging station prices skyrocketed, competition would appear overnight with chargers popping up in every available parking space until the prices stabilized at something reasonable enough for sustaining the industry at a FMV.
- throw-nocoiner 4y agoSorry, this just empirically isn't true. Tesla raised supercharging prices 50% overnight without a whimper in my country, while another EV charging chain raised AC rates 100% just because they can. Two years later, neither of them went bankrupt as a result, nor did any competition undercut them In theory, anyone can open a new charging station. Also, in theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice - they are not. In the real world, economies of scale and supply chain limitations basically guarantee an outcome of oligopolies coalescing into a silent cartel, each of them happily milking their 5-10% margins without any desire to rock the boat.
- withinboredom 4y agoThey can raise prices all they want. Right now, they are just affecting the “rich people who have EVs” and not us “normal people”. I never knew the prices increased and not did I care. Still don’t, actually. But if I was affected, I would probably do something about it because I do care about keeping my costs low.
- pengaru 4y agoI don't understand how one can empirically observe this when EVs haven't yet become the dominant vehicle on the road. Tesla's are rather niche, as a percentage of vehicles on the road it's insignificant. There's not enough demand yet. Tesla drivers are still largely well-heeled early adopters of a luxury brand, of course they're going to be exploited.
- 4y ago
- gruez 4y ago> It feels like the plan has always been to price the working class off the roads, with no alternative beyond walking or cycling. But why? How does it benefit them? The "oil companies lobbying in the US to make car-free lifestyle difficult" conspiracy makes sense because it benefits them, but how does it benefit the elite in europe to "price the working class off the roads, with no alternative beyond walking or cycling"?
- a2tech 4y agoCrowd the working class into cities while you retreat to your private mountain or estate in the country? Keep all the icky poors away from your sight?
- saiya-jin 4y agothat... doesn't make any sense in 21st century at all, no matter how I look into it. I get it, people are pissed off, envious etc. but lets have some rational discussion and not just spit class hate left and right because it feels good (or whatever motivation is there)
- bluescrn 4y agoIf you want to 'save the planet' by massively reducing road travel, you need to relocate the masses into very dense cities, places where public transport can work, where life without cars is practical. As an added bonus, they're all now crammed into tiny apartments that don't require much carbon emission to heat or cool, and where they don't have space for many physical possessions (less consumption of physical resources, more spend/profits on digital/virtual products) Meanwhile, the elite can have even more massive rural estates, and drive their luxury EVs on a near-empty road network to and from their private jets. The problem comes when all the forced-city-dwellers want to escape their urban prison at the weekends... With real travel unaffordable if not outright prohibited, I guess that'll be where the 'metaverse' comes in?...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- 908B64B197 4y ago> It feels like the plan has always been to price the working class off the roads, with no alternative beyond walking or cycling. "Just use slow, crowded, unsafe and inefficient public transit" "Don't worry about me, I have to be chauffeured around, security reasons you know!" "Just give away your guns. You don't need them for protection, you and your kids will be safe with the police" "Me? Oh it's different. See I need theses armed bodyguards with me. For security reasons you know!"
- Kim_Bruning 4y agoEurope is pretty diverse. Many European countries have efficient public transit. Some allow firearms. One territory even has mandatory open carry. Where might you be from?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- chewz 4y ago> When you've got the elite/ruling-class flying in to climate conferences on dozens of private jets, it's clear who isn't going to modify their lifestyle for the sake of the environment. Private Jets Set to Escape Higher EU Energy Taxes - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-09/private-jets-amazon-orders-set-to-escape-higher-eu-energy-taxes https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-09/private-j...
- kmeisthax 4y agoIf this comment was any more American it'd be eating apple pie while cleaning out the barrel of an AR-15. "Pricing the working class off the roads and onto the sidewalk" is the sort of thing that Europeans don't really worry about, because their cities are actually built for pedestrian traffic first and cars second. American cities are built for cars first, and pedestrian traffic if you feel like death from being thrown fifty feet in the air is a good way to go. Furthermore, Europeans already pay way more for gas than we do, and this is politically allowable because most people do not drive to work in Europe. EVs are popular in America because it's the easy quick bandaid fix to the fact that making the entire population drive a powered personal vehicle to work is an environmental nightmare. Europe has trains and buses that work. Totally agree about self-driving taxis; but again, that's an American solution to an American problem for the same reasons I mentioned above. The real problem for Europe is going to be the coming winter. Forget pricing the poors off the roads, how about pricing the poors out of a warm home? Most of Europe's home heating gas came from Russia pre-war. And while Nordstream was very much a geopolitical bad idea, there weren't very many better options to get cheap gas into the region. In fact, this is exactly what Putin is banking on, and much of Russia's prior acts of aggression can be better understood as "what can we do to ensure we have a monopoly on European gas imports and pipelines?". It's also a mistake to look at elites and assume they hate their population purely because they are failing them. The underlying problem is not that they are feckless dictators, it's that they have no good options. If, a decade and change ago, Germany had said no to Russian gas in response to, say, the invasion of Georgia; whoever made that decision would have been punished by being voted out for having taken away the cheap gas from people. You'd have yellow-vest protests all over the Union, and then the whole EU would sheepishly walk back to Russia and beg for the gas pipeline to be turned back on. This is the same reason why the EU has found it difficult to actually fully transition to renewables or low-carbon energy[0], and America has found it outright impossible. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that we won't see yellow-vests all over France[1] this winter. Petrostates have the uncanny ability to survive and evade sanctions, because their people do not have the luxury of deposing elites that fail them, and resource wealth is highly fungible. If you want to see elites that truly hate their poors, look at any country whose wealth comes out of the ground instead of from the people. In contrast, elites in democratic countries are, well, democratically accountable for any policy they implement that harms the people - even if that policy is otherwise a good idea. [0] i.e. renewables plus nuclear; though the history of nuclear power in Europe has it's own problems [1] Insert the appropriate cultural equivalent for your EU member state here
- FooBarWidget 4y ago> And there's still no sign of serious efforts to build charging infrastructure on a 'for the masses' scale, despite bans on new ICE cars planned for less than a decade from now. Amsterdam has decent public charging infra. The best (and having biggest quantity) in Europe even. Heck even the Netherlands in its whole on its own accounts for most of the public charging points in Europe. Finding a public charing point is entirely possible in Amsterdam even though still a nuisance sometimes. But go outside Amsterdam and the situation deteriorates exponentially. Outside Amsterdam I don't count on being able to charge most of the time. I went to a vacation park last month and they had one charging point for the entire park, with no alternative in a radius of 20 km. Outside the Netherlands I don't count on being able to charge at all. This is a huge failure in foresight.
- natch 4y agoWe had two Teslas for a year in an apartment with no charging on site. It worked just fine. Your assumption that it won’t work is mistaken. On the other hand, I would agree it would be better and easier with on-site charging. But it wasn’t bad at all.