3 ms·

Regarding consciousness: we don't know how consciousness is implemented in the brain, that's true, but we might be able to implement it quite easily in a comput

by joak 4y ago

Regarding consciousness: we don't know how consciousness is implemented in the brain, that's true, but we might be able to implement it quite easily in a computer. I'm not sure if there is definition of consciousness everyone agree on, but let's try something: consciousness is the ability to perceive our own thoughts. Consciousness matters a lot because it allows reflexiveness. Sometimes we use it as scientific definition of "soul" as in sentences like: "upload your consciousness" (from believers of Singularity) Decartes' "I think therefore I am" should be rephrase as "I perceive I think therefore I am" The perception of own thoughts is not something difficult for a computer. Just check the activity monitor or run the ps command. We might a attribute too much importance to consciousness because without it we don't know we think.

joak 4y ago
We can run profilers and debuggers on themselves. We can imagine a model taking as input its own internal data. Doesn't seem a big deal...
HKH2 4y ago
> I'm not sure if there is definition of consciousness everyone agree on, but let's try something: consciousness is the ability to perceive our own thoughts. Since you seem to be treating 'thought' metaphorically, how about we say that consciousness is the ability to perceive our own feelings? Are there beings that are conscious that do not have any feelings at all?
- joak 4y ago
  By thought I meant "process happening the brain". It is not metaphorical, it's a very concrete physical process. A perception is a particular thought originated directly from a physical phenomenon (eg. pressure on the skin, light on the retina, ...). So when we are conscious we can perceive our perceptions, our "feelings", and any kind of thoughts. We can for sure perceive our own consciousness, we are conscious of being conscious. In the same way the current ps process is in the list of active processes obtained running ps. Btw: what is a feeling? A particular kind of thought? A emotion maybe? It seems to me that it's a thought which origin is mysterious, unknown, unconscious, ie not conscious.
  - HKH2 4y ago
    > By thought I meant "process happening the brain". It is not metaphorical, it's a very concrete physical process. > The perception of own thoughts is not something difficult for a computer. Just check the activity monitor or run the ps command. It's not hard for a computer to reference itself, sure, but it perceiving its own thoughts is something else. > Btw: what is a feeling? A particular kind of thought? A emotion maybe? It seems to me that it's a thought which origin is mysterious, unknown, unconscious, ie not conscious. I probably should've said emotions. Emotions are more low-level than thoughts. I think that infants can be conscious without thinking at all, so I don't think that thinking is necessary at all for consciousness, yet it probably does color our understanding of what consciousness is.
mikkergp 4y ago
> Regarding consciousness: we don't know how consciousness is implemented in the brain, that's true, but we might be able to implement it quite easily in a computer. Do we know that consciousness exists? Have we been able to scientifically prove in humans that "everyone but me" isn't an NPC? Or put another way, isn't the fact of consciousness inherently subjective? It seems like we all accept that humans have Consciousness because we're not narcissists, but no one has actually pinpointed it. This paper for example, defines Consciousness as "not a process in the brain but a kind of behavior that, of course, is controlled by the brain like any other behavior." So I understand how we could implement the ability for a computer to trick a person into thinking they have consciousness, but I don't know that we could go about proving that they actually have consciousness given that we can't identify it in humans, unless we're talking about something very different than humans which we may be given your use of the activity monitor to define perception. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5924785/#:~:text=Consciousness%20is%20not%20a%20process,and%20the%20use%20of%20tools https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5924785/#:~:tex.... > The perception of own thoughts is not something difficult for a computer. Just check the activity monitor or run the ps command. I don't know that this is a definition of perception that we could agree upon. Though I guess one interesting point counter to mine (and I studied psychology, not AI, so I'm thinking about this from a different direction) is what would it mean to define sentience in something so seemingly sophisticated. I perceive that they AI would have to have sort of full blown human experience to be defined as sentient, but of course I might think a hummingbird has feeling and inner experience. The difference being that I expect the standard for AI to be higher because AI sounds like a human. Interesting.

by joak 4y ago

joak 4y ago

We can run profilers and debuggers on themselves. We can imagine a model taking as input its own internal data. Doesn't seem a big deal...

HKH2 4y ago

> I'm not sure if there is definition of consciousness everyone agree on, but let's try something: consciousness is the ability to perceive our own thoughts. Since you seem to be treating 'thought' metaphorically, how about we say that consciousness is the ability to perceive our own feelings? Are there beings that are conscious that do not have any feelings at all?

joak 4y ago
By thought I meant "process happening the brain". It is not metaphorical, it's a very concrete physical process. A perception is a particular thought originated directly from a physical phenomenon (eg. pressure on the skin, light on the retina, ...). So when we are conscious we can perceive our perceptions, our "feelings", and any kind of thoughts. We can for sure perceive our own consciousness, we are conscious of being conscious. In the same way the current ps process is in the list of active processes obtained running ps. Btw: what is a feeling? A particular kind of thought? A emotion maybe? It seems to me that it's a thought which origin is mysterious, unknown, unconscious, ie not conscious.
- HKH2 4y ago
  > By thought I meant "process happening the brain". It is not metaphorical, it's a very concrete physical process. > The perception of own thoughts is not something difficult for a computer. Just check the activity monitor or run the ps command. It's not hard for a computer to reference itself, sure, but it perceiving its own thoughts is something else. > Btw: what is a feeling? A particular kind of thought? A emotion maybe? It seems to me that it's a thought which origin is mysterious, unknown, unconscious, ie not conscious. I probably should've said emotions. Emotions are more low-level than thoughts. I think that infants can be conscious without thinking at all, so I don't think that thinking is necessary at all for consciousness, yet it probably does color our understanding of what consciousness is.

mikkergp 4y ago

> Regarding consciousness: we don't know how consciousness is implemented in the brain, that's true, but we might be able to implement it quite easily in a computer. Do we know that consciousness exists? Have we been able to scientifically prove in humans that "everyone but me" isn't an NPC? Or put another way, isn't the fact of consciousness inherently subjective? It seems like we all accept that humans have Consciousness because we're not narcissists, but no one has actually pinpointed it. This paper for example, defines Consciousness as "not a process in the brain but a kind of behavior that, of course, is controlled by the brain like any other behavior." So I understand how we could implement the ability for a computer to trick a person into thinking they have consciousness, but I don't know that we could go about proving that they actually have consciousness given that we can't identify it in humans, unless we're talking about something very different than humans which we may be given your use of the activity monitor to define perception. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5924785/#:~:text=Consciousness%20is%20not%20a%20process,and%20the%20use%20of%20tools https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5924785/#:~:tex.... > The perception of own thoughts is not something difficult for a computer. Just check the activity monitor or run the ps command. I don't know that this is a definition of perception that we could agree upon. Though I guess one interesting point counter to mine (and I studied psychology, not AI, so I'm thinking about this from a different direction) is what would it mean to define sentience in something so seemingly sophisticated. I perceive that they AI would have to have sort of full blown human experience to be defined as sentient, but of course I might think a hummingbird has feeling and inner experience. The difference being that I expect the standard for AI to be higher because AI sounds like a human. Interesting.