3 ms·

Ninety minutes, free-flowing conversation, perhaps a glass of wine Yuck. Of course it creates more productivity, they're sucking free time out of my evening an

Ninety minutes, free-flowing conversation, perhaps a glass of wine Yuck. Of course it creates more productivity, they're sucking free time out of my evening and injecting into my work day. Screw that. I'm eating a sandwich at my desk in peace and then I'm going home an hour earlier than these shmucks.

achenet 4y ago
Frenchman here. I leave the office at 6pm at the latest, and I take 2 hour lunch breaks everyday. :)
- balfirevic 4y ago
  That's not informative at all without knowing when you arrive.
  - achenet 4y ago
    Daily meeting is at 9h30. I generally show up a bit before that if in office, or log on a bit before that if WFH. 9 at the earliest, generally closer to 9h15, 9h20. :)
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  Just scheduled my time off for the year, 46 days off, not counting week-ends and national holidays. Please someone save me from this oppressive regime!
- csdvrx 4y ago
  > Frenchman here. I leave the office at 6pm at the latest, and I take 2 hour lunch breaks everyday. :) Good for you - not for me. I do intermittent fasting. I often eat by 4pm. Should I need the government authorization to eat at my desk at 4pm? (or leave at 4pm to eat at home which is equivalent to you leaving at 6pm after a 2h lunch break) Or would I need to take a 2h break I don't want to? Government regulation of lifestyles is acceptable when you have an extremely homogeneous population and culture: this can work in Japan. This might work in France. This sure won't work here in the US.
  - cguess 4y ago
    Hello straw man. Read the story and the other comments. No one's forcing you to not eat at your desk in France, it's just making companies give the option not to. Not eating after 4pm is a very very rare condition in the entire world. I wouldn't expect everyone, or anyone, to take that into consideration of any policy.
    - throw10920 4y ago
      > No one's forcing you to not eat at your desk in France, it's just making companies give the option not to. Can you point out where the article says that? All I see is "The government's answer: ban lunch in the workplace."
      - goodpoint 4y ago
        What you see is clickbait. It's perfectly legal to skip lunch and go home earlier or work remotely and so on.
        nybble41 4y ago
        It's not clickbait. You may be able to skip lunch altogether but you can't eat it at your desk: > Until now, any company allowing employees to eat lunch at their desks was subject to a fine if discovered by the inspectors who enforce the labor code. The employee in question faced unspecified disciplinary action.[0] The "until now" refers to the suspension of the law in 2021 to promote social distancing due to the COVID-19 pandemic. That suspension has since expired, so eating at one's desk is once again prohibited. The actual law is Article R4228-19: "Il est interdit de laisser les travailleurs prendre leur repas dans les locaux affectés au travail."[1] Google translates this as "It is forbidden to allow workers to take their meals in the premises assigned to the work." [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/07/world/europe/france-desk-lunch-covid.html#:~:text=allowing%20employees%20to%20eat%20lunch%20at%20their%20desks https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/07/world/europe/france-desk-... [1] https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000018531960 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
toomuchtodo 4y ago
France is more productive per capita (edit: the reference I found was from 2009, France is currently slightly less productive than the US per capita[1]) and has a higher quality of life than the US. Consider improving your mental model and recognizing you are not as well off and productive as you believe. Japanese workers spend a lot of time at their desks too, but not that productive! Data > emotions, work to live don’t live to work, all that jazz. Recent on topic thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31690239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31690239 [1] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/02/25/french-workers/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/02/25/french-workers...
- swatcoder 4y ago
  Consider that aggregates may not scale down to every individual. Data > Statistics
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Also true! But we have to have an agreement on foundational facts to have a cogent debate of ideas. Preferences aren’t facts, but are still welcome. If you want to eat at your desk while I have a 90 minute lunch with wine and good company, that’s okay, life is about choices. We are optimizing differently.
    - swatcoder 4y ago
      It’s interesting that you seem to take the OP as trying to optimize productivity. I assume this because you first point out that French culture is more productive, and then link to the discussion about toxic productivity. But to me, it sounds like they just prefer to defragment their day regardless of productivity. I think the whole idea of escaping toxic productivity is to not worry about maximally optimizing it in the first place. I’d bet you’re both on the same page about that.
- nawitus 4y ago
  Really? US seems to be more productive: https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm
throwaway193948 4y ago
if you were in france you’d probably be taking the long lunch and still going home early
GekkePrutser 4y ago
It's also nice to spend time with the colleagues. Especially as we're only in the office one or two days a week now. I like it, though we don't spend 90 minutes but one hour. We always go to a restaurant off-site and have a 3 course meal with a beer for who wants it. PS I'm in Spain not France but similar culture. But here you can eat at the desk if you really want to. Also I go to France regularly and people do eat at their desks there. Some people just like to or they're forced to because of cross-timezone meetings. Like most of these protectionist laws (like not being allowed to email out of work hours) they're only for show and not actually enforced. France is a bit weird like that.
- throw10920 4y ago
  I'd at least like the choice as to whether I want to spend those 90 minutes with my colleagues, friends, or family, though...
908B64B197 4y ago
> Yuck. Of course it creates more productivity, they're sucking free time out of my evening and injecting into my work day Here's the thing: a lot of firms consider lunch working hours. I was confused by the practice at first but in tech oftentimes there's a lot of technical discussions happening. And since the French are more hierarchy conscious than Americans, lunch represents a break where ideas can flow more freely.
- cudgy 4y ago
  Technical discussions during lunchtime? Rarely ever see this as a normal activity.
JackFr 4y ago

achenet 4y ago

Frenchman here. I leave the office at 6pm at the latest, and I take 2 hour lunch breaks everyday. :)

balfirevic 4y ago
That's not informative at all without knowing when you arrive.
- achenet 4y ago
  Daily meeting is at 9h30. I generally show up a bit before that if in office, or log on a bit before that if WFH. 9 at the earliest, generally closer to 9h15, 9h20. :)
ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
Just scheduled my time off for the year, 46 days off, not counting week-ends and national holidays. Please someone save me from this oppressive regime!
csdvrx 4y ago
> Frenchman here. I leave the office at 6pm at the latest, and I take 2 hour lunch breaks everyday. :) Good for you - not for me. I do intermittent fasting. I often eat by 4pm. Should I need the government authorization to eat at my desk at 4pm? (or leave at 4pm to eat at home which is equivalent to you leaving at 6pm after a 2h lunch break) Or would I need to take a 2h break I don't want to? Government regulation of lifestyles is acceptable when you have an extremely homogeneous population and culture: this can work in Japan. This might work in France. This sure won't work here in the US.
- cguess 4y ago
  Hello straw man. Read the story and the other comments. No one's forcing you to not eat at your desk in France, it's just making companies give the option not to. Not eating after 4pm is a very very rare condition in the entire world. I wouldn't expect everyone, or anyone, to take that into consideration of any policy.
  - throw10920 4y ago
    > No one's forcing you to not eat at your desk in France, it's just making companies give the option not to. Can you point out where the article says that? All I see is "The government's answer: ban lunch in the workplace."
    - goodpoint 4y ago
      What you see is clickbait. It's perfectly legal to skip lunch and go home earlier or work remotely and so on.
      - nybble41 4y ago
        It's not clickbait. You may be able to skip lunch altogether but you can't eat it at your desk: > Until now, any company allowing employees to eat lunch at their desks was subject to a fine if discovered by the inspectors who enforce the labor code. The employee in question faced unspecified disciplinary action.[0] The "until now" refers to the suspension of the law in 2021 to promote social distancing due to the COVID-19 pandemic. That suspension has since expired, so eating at one's desk is once again prohibited. The actual law is Article R4228-19: "Il est interdit de laisser les travailleurs prendre leur repas dans les locaux affectés au travail."[1] Google translates this as "It is forbidden to allow workers to take their meals in the premises assigned to the work." [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/07/world/europe/france-desk-lunch-covid.html#:~:text=allowing%20employees%20to%20eat%20lunch%20at%20their%20desks https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/07/world/europe/france-desk-... [1] https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000018531960 https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...

toomuchtodo 4y ago

France is more productive per capita (edit: the reference I found was from 2009, France is currently slightly less productive than the US per capita[1]) and has a higher quality of life than the US. Consider improving your mental model and recognizing you are not as well off and productive as you believe. Japanese workers spend a lot of time at their desks too, but not that productive! Data > emotions, work to live don’t live to work, all that jazz. Recent on topic thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31690239 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31690239 [1] https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/02/25/french-workers/ https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2013/02/25/french-workers...

swatcoder 4y ago
Consider that aggregates may not scale down to every individual. Data > Statistics
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Also true! But we have to have an agreement on foundational facts to have a cogent debate of ideas. Preferences aren’t facts, but are still welcome. If you want to eat at your desk while I have a 90 minute lunch with wine and good company, that’s okay, life is about choices. We are optimizing differently.
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    It’s interesting that you seem to take the OP as trying to optimize productivity. I assume this because you first point out that French culture is more productive, and then link to the discussion about toxic productivity. But to me, it sounds like they just prefer to defragment their day regardless of productivity. I think the whole idea of escaping toxic productivity is to not worry about maximally optimizing it in the first place. I’d bet you’re both on the same page about that.
nawitus 4y ago
Really? US seems to be more productive: https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm

throwaway193948 4y ago

if you were in france you’d probably be taking the long lunch and still going home early

GekkePrutser 4y ago

It's also nice to spend time with the colleagues. Especially as we're only in the office one or two days a week now. I like it, though we don't spend 90 minutes but one hour. We always go to a restaurant off-site and have a 3 course meal with a beer for who wants it. PS I'm in Spain not France but similar culture. But here you can eat at the desk if you really want to. Also I go to France regularly and people do eat at their desks there. Some people just like to or they're forced to because of cross-timezone meetings. Like most of these protectionist laws (like not being allowed to email out of work hours) they're only for show and not actually enforced. France is a bit weird like that.

throw10920 4y ago
I'd at least like the choice as to whether I want to spend those 90 minutes with my colleagues, friends, or family, though...

908B64B197 4y ago

> Yuck. Of course it creates more productivity, they're sucking free time out of my evening and injecting into my work day Here's the thing: a lot of firms consider lunch working hours. I was confused by the practice at first but in tech oftentimes there's a lot of technical discussions happening. And since the French are more hierarchy conscious than Americans, lunch represents a break where ideas can flow more freely.

cudgy 4y ago
Technical discussions during lunchtime? Rarely ever see this as a normal activity.

JackFr 4y ago