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> if you act like an asshole around any kid, eventually they'll learn to become more of an asshole Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and

> if you act like an asshole around any kid, eventually they'll learn to become more of an asshole Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. You are already either the kind of parent who will worry about being the right kind of parent, or you aren't. Those choices are dictated by who you are, and who you are is already defined by your genes and lived experiences. How your kids respond to you is also already defined by _their_ genes and lived experiences.

ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
> Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. I have not seen any evidence to indicate that people have no control over their behavior and cannot change it based on the circumstances. It seems like a ridiculous example of fatalism taken to the extreme: "Your honor, yes, I killed that man, but based on my genes and lived experiences, I was already either going to kill him or not" The decisions are determined by an intelligent creature weighing the choices and making a decision, which is often different when you have a kid around. I wouldn't be saying "asshole" if there was a young kid here, for example, mine or otherwise. Indeed, many the "experiences" you have as an adult, which continue to mold your personality, are consciously chosen by you.
- mikkergp 4y ago
  I think the key is the way everything is connected. Should you hit your kids? Probably not, but if you’re the type of person who believes in Corporal punishment you’re probably not the type of person who is self reflective about it. If you’re really conciencious chances are you’re probably doing the right things to improve yourself and obsessing about it isn’t going to help. If you’re not conociencious then your not opening yourself to the kind of experiences that are going to make you a better parent so it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
  - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    > if you’re the type of person who believes in Corporal punishment you’re probably not the type of person who is self reflective about it. Where are you getting your data from for all these assumptions you're throwing out? Like, one could say "If you're the type of person who swears a lot, you're probably not the type of person who is self reflective about it" with the exact same amount of confidence, yet be just as wrong (I myself volunteer to be the example which disproves the rule). Often people are MOST self-reflective about their perceived flaws (before you potentially say that anyone with a flaw won't perceive it as one, I again volunteer to be the counterexample which disproves such a hypothetic rule)
    - mikkergp 4y ago
      I didn’t say do you accidentally engage in corporal punishment, I said if you believe in corporal punishment, implying a difference between a flaw and a belief not shared by all that may still damage a child. Sure you can change your beliefs but it’s not like a flaw that your self reflective about. > Often people are MOST self-reflective about their perceived flaws And yet often they continue to engage in them. I don’t know that we’re disagreeing all that much except perhaps on the definition of “control”. I don’t think most people have the self discipline to control their own behavior so much as influence it, but maybe that’s just one of my flaws.
      - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        > I said if you believe in corporal punishment [...then you definitely wont ever stop engaging in it to any degree] Again, where are you getting the data for these assumptions of yours? >> Often people are MOST self-reflective about their perceived flaws > And yet often they continue to engage in them Here we see the goalpost shift: *"OFTEN"* being added. If the rule isn't always true, then the advice, ("parenting doesn't matter") which depends on it always being true, is wrong. If people can, in fact, consciously better themselves, then the advice to not even try, because _we can only do what our genes and environment tell us to do_, is wrong. So again, I'll be the counterexample which proves this rule wrong, for the third time in a row: I quit drinking to excess entirely, after previously being someone who, as you put it, _"believed"_ in drinking to excess. Should I not have tried? Before I did, you may have told me, "drinking to excess is just who you are due to your genes and your environment".
bittercynic 4y ago
Speaking as a partially reformed asshole, I believe we do have some control over this. It may not be possible to just decide to stop being an asshole and flip a switch, but with some self-awareness and consistent effort, it is possible to make progress.
danadannecy 4y ago
By this logic you don't control anything in your life, as your choices are always defined by your past and experiences. I think it's very fair to assume room for free will in a discussion like this.

ImPostingOnHN 4y ago

> Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. I have not seen any evidence to indicate that people have no control over their behavior and cannot change it based on the circumstances. It seems like a ridiculous example of fatalism taken to the extreme: "Your honor, yes, I killed that man, but based on my genes and lived experiences, I was already either going to kill him or not" The decisions are determined by an intelligent creature weighing the choices and making a decision, which is often different when you have a kid around. I wouldn't be saying "asshole" if there was a young kid here, for example, mine or otherwise. Indeed, many the "experiences" you have as an adult, which continue to mold your personality, are consciously chosen by you.

mikkergp 4y ago
I think the key is the way everything is connected. Should you hit your kids? Probably not, but if you’re the type of person who believes in Corporal punishment you’re probably not the type of person who is self reflective about it. If you’re really conciencious chances are you’re probably doing the right things to improve yourself and obsessing about it isn’t going to help. If you’re not conociencious then your not opening yourself to the kind of experiences that are going to make you a better parent so it’s a self fulfilling prophecy.
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  > if you’re the type of person who believes in Corporal punishment you’re probably not the type of person who is self reflective about it. Where are you getting your data from for all these assumptions you're throwing out? Like, one could say "If you're the type of person who swears a lot, you're probably not the type of person who is self reflective about it" with the exact same amount of confidence, yet be just as wrong (I myself volunteer to be the example which disproves the rule). Often people are MOST self-reflective about their perceived flaws (before you potentially say that anyone with a flaw won't perceive it as one, I again volunteer to be the counterexample which disproves such a hypothetic rule)
  - mikkergp 4y ago
    I didn’t say do you accidentally engage in corporal punishment, I said if you believe in corporal punishment, implying a difference between a flaw and a belief not shared by all that may still damage a child. Sure you can change your beliefs but it’s not like a flaw that your self reflective about. > Often people are MOST self-reflective about their perceived flaws And yet often they continue to engage in them. I don’t know that we’re disagreeing all that much except perhaps on the definition of “control”. I don’t think most people have the self discipline to control their own behavior so much as influence it, but maybe that’s just one of my flaws.
    - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
      > I said if you believe in corporal punishment [...then you definitely wont ever stop engaging in it to any degree] Again, where are you getting the data for these assumptions of yours? >> Often people are MOST self-reflective about their perceived flaws > And yet often they continue to engage in them Here we see the goalpost shift: *"OFTEN"* being added. If the rule isn't always true, then the advice, ("parenting doesn't matter") which depends on it always being true, is wrong. If people can, in fact, consciously better themselves, then the advice to not even try, because _we can only do what our genes and environment tell us to do_, is wrong. So again, I'll be the counterexample which proves this rule wrong, for the third time in a row: I quit drinking to excess entirely, after previously being someone who, as you put it, _"believed"_ in drinking to excess. Should I not have tried? Before I did, you may have told me, "drinking to excess is just who you are due to your genes and your environment".

bittercynic 4y ago

Speaking as a partially reformed asshole, I believe we do have some control over this. It may not be possible to just decide to stop being an asshole and flip a switch, but with some self-awareness and consistent effort, it is possible to make progress.

danadannecy 4y ago

By this logic you don't control anything in your life, as your choices are always defined by your past and experiences. I think it's very fair to assume room for free will in a discussion like this.