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This reminds me of that quote from Anna Karenina. > All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. One thing I think isn't being

This reminds me of that quote from Anna Karenina. > All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. One thing I think isn't being emphasized is that those authors aren't saying "parenting doesn't matter" as much as they're saying "you have little control over what kind of parental environment you provide, so relax and do the best you can". You don't control your genes, your kids genes, and you don't control your environment. Those are the (super overly simplistic) factors that comprise parenting. Another way to look at it is that, given your genes and the way you were raised, you're going to be a certain kind of parent. Given your kids genes, the way you raise them, and their experiences, they're going to be a certain kind of adult. You don't have control over any of that as a parent, so relax and enjoy the ride.

blfr 4y ago
But you do control your kids genes massively through mate choice. This is what Plomin captures with parents matter, but they don’t make a difference.
jfk13 4y ago
> and you don't control your environment Surely you do control your environment, at least to some degree. E.g. when we were house-hunting, one of the factors that weighed pretty heavily was the environment (neighbourhood, schools, etc.) that we'd be putting our kids in by choosing a given home.
- spicyusername 4y ago
  Right, but the kinds of choices you are going to make are dictated by the kind of person you are. The kind of person you are is dictated by your genes are your past experiences. All those factors are out of your control. You were (are) only ever going to do the kinds of things you're going to do. So, in the context of parenting, stressing about what kind of parent you should be is meaningless. You're always only ever going to be the kind of parent you're going to be and your kids are only ever going to respond to that parenting in the way that they respond. Amusingly, this also means that parents who are going to stress about being the right kind of parent are always going to do that anyways.
  - barrkel 4y ago
    This denies the effect of exogenous information on choices, and conflates objective determinism with subjective free will. What if telling someone they had free will to make a choice affected the choices they deterministically made? What if saying something is out of your control changed what you did versus saying something is in your control? Even within the theory that things are "out of your control" due to some automatic mechanism, that mechanism is still triggered by exogenous information input.
    - spicyusername 4y ago
      > This denies the effect of exogenous information on choices It doesn't though. Some parents, on reading one of these author's books on genetics, may alter the way they behave. Some parents may not. The way that either parent reacts to reading this "exogenous information" is dictated by their genes and lived experiences.
      - jfk13 4y ago
        You appear to hold a strongly mechanistic view of humanity (and perhaps of the world as a whole?). Not everyone shares that view. So if you're going to argue from that as a basis, you must expect we won't all share your conclusions. (But of course this is just my genes and experiences dictating my words...)
        spicyusername 4y ago
        > Originally proposed by Judith Rich Harris in The Nurture Assumption, and promoted by popsci big shots like Matt Ridley and Stephen Pinker, the idea got another push from Robert Plomin in his 2018 book Blueprint. The latest proponent is economist Bryan Caplan on the 80,000 Hours podcast. Their argument is backed by heavyweight research, but simple at heart. I'm just outlining the arguments related to this discussion from most of those author's works. This podcast "Final Thoughts on Free Will" by Sam Harris presents some compelling arguments, if you're interested. https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/241-final-thoughts-on-free-will https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/241...
ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
> Given your kids genes, the way you raise them, and their experiences, they're going to be a certain kind of adult. You don't have control over any of that as a parent, so relax and enjoy the ride. you have control over TONS of that as a parent, specifically "the way you raise them" and a ton of their experiences. your kid won't become an asshole due to "asshole genes" they might inherit from you, but if you act like an asshole around any kid, eventually they'll learn to become more of an asshole likewise, nice personalities aren't inherited, they're developed after birth (ever hear a newborn say "thank you for my existence"? so rude!)
- spicyusername 4y ago
  > if you act like an asshole around any kid, eventually they'll learn to become more of an asshole Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. You are already either the kind of parent who will worry about being the right kind of parent, or you aren't. Those choices are dictated by who you are, and who you are is already defined by your genes and lived experiences. How your kids respond to you is also already defined by _their_ genes and lived experiences.
  - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    > Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. I have not seen any evidence to indicate that people have no control over their behavior and cannot change it based on the circumstances. It seems like a ridiculous example of fatalism taken to the extreme: "Your honor, yes, I killed that man, but based on my genes and lived experiences, I was already either going to kill him or not" The decisions are determined by an intelligent creature weighing the choices and making a decision, which is often different when you have a kid around. I wouldn't be saying "asshole" if there was a young kid here, for example, mine or otherwise. Indeed, many the "experiences" you have as an adult, which continue to mold your personality, are consciously chosen by you.
mantas 4y ago
Regarding environment, you do control it to a big extent. You pick where to live. You pick what your kid is exposed to in early years, like playground, youtube, things you do together. You pick childcare (or to skip it). And lots of other small things along the road. And, most importantly, you control yourself which kid takes as baseline and role model. Of course, it’s not 100% clean room. But parents do have control of massive portion of stuff in early years.
- lupire 4y ago
  But how does that environment affect who they are? It affects certain measures of happiness, in the short term, but does it affect their long term future?
  - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    Yes. Living creatures tend to mimick, primates especially. A primate surrounded by bad personalities will mimick them and develop a bad personality. I think we both understand how a bad personality can affect one's long-term future.
  - mantas 4y ago
    That sets baseline what the kid will take as normal. E.g. partying vs solo silent entertainment, food habits, substances abuse, relationship with peers and opposite sex, money management habits… It’s not exactly affecting happiness. It’s just laying foundation for personality and lifestyle. If it leads to „happiness“, it depends on culture at the time of him growing up. And wether he will feel a need to fit in or rebel.

blfr 4y ago

But you do control your kids genes massively through mate choice. This is what Plomin captures with parents matter, but they don’t make a difference.

jfk13 4y ago

> and you don't control your environment Surely you do control your environment, at least to some degree. E.g. when we were house-hunting, one of the factors that weighed pretty heavily was the environment (neighbourhood, schools, etc.) that we'd be putting our kids in by choosing a given home.

spicyusername 4y ago
Right, but the kinds of choices you are going to make are dictated by the kind of person you are. The kind of person you are is dictated by your genes are your past experiences. All those factors are out of your control. You were (are) only ever going to do the kinds of things you're going to do. So, in the context of parenting, stressing about what kind of parent you should be is meaningless. You're always only ever going to be the kind of parent you're going to be and your kids are only ever going to respond to that parenting in the way that they respond. Amusingly, this also means that parents who are going to stress about being the right kind of parent are always going to do that anyways.
- barrkel 4y ago
  This denies the effect of exogenous information on choices, and conflates objective determinism with subjective free will. What if telling someone they had free will to make a choice affected the choices they deterministically made? What if saying something is out of your control changed what you did versus saying something is in your control? Even within the theory that things are "out of your control" due to some automatic mechanism, that mechanism is still triggered by exogenous information input.
  - spicyusername 4y ago
    > This denies the effect of exogenous information on choices It doesn't though. Some parents, on reading one of these author's books on genetics, may alter the way they behave. Some parents may not. The way that either parent reacts to reading this "exogenous information" is dictated by their genes and lived experiences.
    - jfk13 4y ago
      You appear to hold a strongly mechanistic view of humanity (and perhaps of the world as a whole?). Not everyone shares that view. So if you're going to argue from that as a basis, you must expect we won't all share your conclusions. (But of course this is just my genes and experiences dictating my words...)
      - spicyusername 4y ago
        > Originally proposed by Judith Rich Harris in The Nurture Assumption, and promoted by popsci big shots like Matt Ridley and Stephen Pinker, the idea got another push from Robert Plomin in his 2018 book Blueprint. The latest proponent is economist Bryan Caplan on the 80,000 Hours podcast. Their argument is backed by heavyweight research, but simple at heart. I'm just outlining the arguments related to this discussion from most of those author's works. This podcast "Final Thoughts on Free Will" by Sam Harris presents some compelling arguments, if you're interested. https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/241-final-thoughts-on-free-will https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/241...

ImPostingOnHN 4y ago

> Given your kids genes, the way you raise them, and their experiences, they're going to be a certain kind of adult. You don't have control over any of that as a parent, so relax and enjoy the ride. you have control over TONS of that as a parent, specifically "the way you raise them" and a ton of their experiences. your kid won't become an asshole due to "asshole genes" they might inherit from you, but if you act like an asshole around any kid, eventually they'll learn to become more of an asshole likewise, nice personalities aren't inherited, they're developed after birth (ever hear a newborn say "thank you for my existence"? so rude!)

spicyusername 4y ago
> if you act like an asshole around any kid, eventually they'll learn to become more of an asshole Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. You are already either the kind of parent who will worry about being the right kind of parent, or you aren't. Those choices are dictated by who you are, and who you are is already defined by your genes and lived experiences. How your kids respond to you is also already defined by _their_ genes and lived experiences.
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  > Exactly true. But the thing is, you, based on your genes and lived experiences, are already going to be the kind of parent who will be an asshole, or you won't. I have not seen any evidence to indicate that people have no control over their behavior and cannot change it based on the circumstances. It seems like a ridiculous example of fatalism taken to the extreme: "Your honor, yes, I killed that man, but based on my genes and lived experiences, I was already either going to kill him or not" The decisions are determined by an intelligent creature weighing the choices and making a decision, which is often different when you have a kid around. I wouldn't be saying "asshole" if there was a young kid here, for example, mine or otherwise. Indeed, many the "experiences" you have as an adult, which continue to mold your personality, are consciously chosen by you.

mantas 4y ago

Regarding environment, you do control it to a big extent. You pick where to live. You pick what your kid is exposed to in early years, like playground, youtube, things you do together. You pick childcare (or to skip it). And lots of other small things along the road. And, most importantly, you control yourself which kid takes as baseline and role model. Of course, it’s not 100% clean room. But parents do have control of massive portion of stuff in early years.

lupire 4y ago
But how does that environment affect who they are? It affects certain measures of happiness, in the short term, but does it affect their long term future?
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  Yes. Living creatures tend to mimick, primates especially. A primate surrounded by bad personalities will mimick them and develop a bad personality. I think we both understand how a bad personality can affect one's long-term future.
- mantas 4y ago
  That sets baseline what the kid will take as normal. E.g. partying vs solo silent entertainment, food habits, substances abuse, relationship with peers and opposite sex, money management habits… It’s not exactly affecting happiness. It’s just laying foundation for personality and lifestyle. If it leads to „happiness“, it depends on culture at the time of him growing up. And wether he will feel a need to fit in or rebel.