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Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense

Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense.

walterbell 4y ago
New companies offer an absence of technical and cultural debt. Nuvia was purchased for $1.4 billion by Qualcomm, a couple of years after being started.
jltsiren 4y ago
Why would compensation be the decisive factor for top talent in a highly compensated field? They have probably already made enough money that they don't have to work for living, and they are probably genuinely interested in their work because they made it to the top. Apple processors are already in the market, so the most interesting work is done, and it may be time to start looking for new challenges.
- lostlogin 4y ago
  The article specifically lists culture and money as the reasons people are leaving. It also adds that there is a need for a challenge amongst a successful and accomplished group. “ The bleeding hasn’t stopped in recent years as Apple’s work culture simply isn’t the best and other firms, namely the hyperscalers such as Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta, are paying more than Apple was to poach talent.”
- riffraff 4y ago
  If you consider Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you have "esteem" at a high place. Money becomes a proxy for that. Big management negotiate higher pay all the time not because there is a difference between earning 30 or 40 millions, but because they need to feel their own "value" go up. This is discussed at length in "thinking fast and slow", iirc.
- marcinzm 4y ago
  Spending goes up with compensation in general. Then it becomes the norm and you don't want to lose it. Sure you can retire but probably not at a level where you can fly first class everywhere, stay in five star hotels and stay on private islands. That aside once people have kids the sky is the limit for giving them the "best life possible." Nanny, private tutors, private schools (and/or a house in Cupertino since it's Apple), college funds, house with good amenities nearby, etc. I probably missed some costs in there.
  - astrange 4y ago
    Private schools aren't the norm in the Bay Area, they just fund their local public schools more and then keep out anyone they don't like via NIMBYism. They're more normal in SF because of the school lottery system which can assign you to a school whether or not you can actually get there on time every day.
postalrat 4y ago
Well they aren't the richest and certainly aren't the biggest.
- rowanG077 4y ago
  Depending on how you define richest Apple could very well be the richest. It has something like 200 billion dollars in cash in hand. I would be surprised if any company could match that.
  - green-eclipse 4y ago
    Often unreported, Apple also has $100B in debt. Google and Microsoft have a better net cash and cash equivalents position than Apple. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/long-term-debt https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/long-te...
    - ezconnect 4y ago
      Getting debt is the only way they could bring their cash home to avoid tax.
      - adrr 4y ago
        Can you explain the process? I can’t make it work to avoid tax. I assume Apple’s debt is credit lines to fund inventory.
        macintux 4y ago
        Repatriating cash earned outside the U.S. involves a hefty tax (afraid I don't recall the number). Occasionally the government offers a tax holiday to encourage companies to do so. So, rather than bring the money home at the high rate, Apple has been taking on debt for U.S. operations while waiting for (and perhaps lobbying for) another tax holiday.
        4y ago
TylerE 4y ago
Things don't become the "est" anything by being wasteful.
- 29083011397778 4y ago
  Not even the poorest?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- riffraff 4y ago
  My dad used to tell a story when as a kid he worked at a gas station. Guy shows up with a Ferrari, asks for a full tank, pays with a large note and my dad asks him to keep the change. The guy replied - boy, I got a lot of money Really, a lot. You know how I got them? I never gave anything away for free. Hand that change over.
  - otikik 4y ago
    That just illustrates that a lot of rich guys are entitled assholes. The correlation between assholery and driving an expensive car in particular has been studied. https://youtu.be/1EHhFwGeQLc https://youtu.be/1EHhFwGeQLc
    - imwillofficial 4y ago
      - otikik 4y ago
        The assholery part here is not about who keeps the change. It’s about telling a gas station boy “that’s how you got rich”. What makes you rich is first of all being born rich, which most rich people tend to ignore. On the few cases were we are really talking about people with humble beginnings, it’s all about making your time count. If the guy was really rich, the time it would take the boy to get inside, take 2 dollars from the cash register and give them to him was just not worth it. It was all self aggrandising bravado.
KerrAvon 4y ago
Steve was notoriously and sometimes arbitrarily cheap. Apple retains some of that.
- jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
  Shame that the market is slow to punish and inertia continues to reward.
- pdnell 4y ago
  Yet they’ll buy their own quarry or glass factory…
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Because it's cheaper...
    - antifa 4y ago
      Raises are usually cheaper than recruiting, also raises are cheaper than quarries...
prvc 4y ago
They lack a culture of advancing technology per se, as opposed to making use of it.
green-eclipse 4y ago
Jony Ive would call it courage.
smcleod 4y ago
Also their push to try and make people work from the office again went down like a lead balloon.
Jyaif 4y ago
There are a downsides to paying a lot: * you attract/retain more people that are interested in money/status. * the employees become entitled. Also, just like Apple's customers are OK with paying a premium price because it's Apple, employees are OK with paying a premium price to be an employee of Apple (by accepting lower salaries).
- gnicholas 4y ago
  Economists call it 'psychic income'; it's often cited as a reason why salaries for teachers are not higher.
  - davidgould 4y ago
    John Kenneth Galbraith called this phenomenon "convenient social virtue".
koonsolo 4y ago
So you claim that 10 well paid engineers are better than 15 average paid engineers?
- brokencode 4y ago
  Apple has enough money that they don’t have to reduce headcount to be able to afford higher salaries.

Why does the biggest and richest company in the world ever have to suffer from talent leaving because they don’t get paid enough? It just doesn’t make any sense.

walterbell 4y ago

New companies offer an absence of technical and cultural debt. Nuvia was purchased for $1.4 billion by Qualcomm, a couple of years after being started.

jltsiren 4y ago

Why would compensation be the decisive factor for top talent in a highly compensated field? They have probably already made enough money that they don't have to work for living, and they are probably genuinely interested in their work because they made it to the top. Apple processors are already in the market, so the most interesting work is done, and it may be time to start looking for new challenges.

lostlogin 4y ago
The article specifically lists culture and money as the reasons people are leaving. It also adds that there is a need for a challenge amongst a successful and accomplished group. “ The bleeding hasn’t stopped in recent years as Apple’s work culture simply isn’t the best and other firms, namely the hyperscalers such as Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta, are paying more than Apple was to poach talent.”
riffraff 4y ago
If you consider Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you have "esteem" at a high place. Money becomes a proxy for that. Big management negotiate higher pay all the time not because there is a difference between earning 30 or 40 millions, but because they need to feel their own "value" go up. This is discussed at length in "thinking fast and slow", iirc.
marcinzm 4y ago
Spending goes up with compensation in general. Then it becomes the norm and you don't want to lose it. Sure you can retire but probably not at a level where you can fly first class everywhere, stay in five star hotels and stay on private islands. That aside once people have kids the sky is the limit for giving them the "best life possible." Nanny, private tutors, private schools (and/or a house in Cupertino since it's Apple), college funds, house with good amenities nearby, etc. I probably missed some costs in there.
- astrange 4y ago
  Private schools aren't the norm in the Bay Area, they just fund their local public schools more and then keep out anyone they don't like via NIMBYism. They're more normal in SF because of the school lottery system which can assign you to a school whether or not you can actually get there on time every day.

postalrat 4y ago

Well they aren't the richest and certainly aren't the biggest.

rowanG077 4y ago
Depending on how you define richest Apple could very well be the richest. It has something like 200 billion dollars in cash in hand. I would be surprised if any company could match that.
- green-eclipse 4y ago
  Often unreported, Apple also has $100B in debt. Google and Microsoft have a better net cash and cash equivalents position than Apple. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/long-term-debt https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/long-te...
  - ezconnect 4y ago
    Getting debt is the only way they could bring their cash home to avoid tax.
    - adrr 4y ago
      Can you explain the process? I can’t make it work to avoid tax. I assume Apple’s debt is credit lines to fund inventory.
      - macintux 4y ago
        Repatriating cash earned outside the U.S. involves a hefty tax (afraid I don't recall the number). Occasionally the government offers a tax holiday to encourage companies to do so. So, rather than bring the money home at the high rate, Apple has been taking on debt for U.S. operations while waiting for (and perhaps lobbying for) another tax holiday.
        4y ago

TylerE 4y ago

Things don't become the "est" anything by being wasteful.

29083011397778 4y ago
Not even the poorest?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
riffraff 4y ago
My dad used to tell a story when as a kid he worked at a gas station. Guy shows up with a Ferrari, asks for a full tank, pays with a large note and my dad asks him to keep the change. The guy replied - boy, I got a lot of money Really, a lot. You know how I got them? I never gave anything away for free. Hand that change over.
- otikik 4y ago
  That just illustrates that a lot of rich guys are entitled assholes. The correlation between assholery and driving an expensive car in particular has been studied. https://youtu.be/1EHhFwGeQLc https://youtu.be/1EHhFwGeQLc
  - imwillofficial 4y ago
    - otikik 4y ago
      The assholery part here is not about who keeps the change. It’s about telling a gas station boy “that’s how you got rich”. What makes you rich is first of all being born rich, which most rich people tend to ignore. On the few cases were we are really talking about people with humble beginnings, it’s all about making your time count. If the guy was really rich, the time it would take the boy to get inside, take 2 dollars from the cash register and give them to him was just not worth it. It was all self aggrandising bravado.

KerrAvon 4y ago

Steve was notoriously and sometimes arbitrarily cheap. Apple retains some of that.

jsiaajdsdaa 4y ago
Shame that the market is slow to punish and inertia continues to reward.
pdnell 4y ago
Yet they’ll buy their own quarry or glass factory…
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Because it's cheaper...
  - antifa 4y ago
    Raises are usually cheaper than recruiting, also raises are cheaper than quarries...

prvc 4y ago

They lack a culture of advancing technology per se, as opposed to making use of it.

green-eclipse 4y ago

Jony Ive would call it courage.

smcleod 4y ago

Also their push to try and make people work from the office again went down like a lead balloon.

Jyaif 4y ago

There are a downsides to paying a lot: * you attract/retain more people that are interested in money/status. * the employees become entitled. Also, just like Apple's customers are OK with paying a premium price because it's Apple, employees are OK with paying a premium price to be an employee of Apple (by accepting lower salaries).

gnicholas 4y ago
Economists call it 'psychic income'; it's often cited as a reason why salaries for teachers are not higher.
- davidgould 4y ago
  John Kenneth Galbraith called this phenomenon "convenient social virtue".

koonsolo 4y ago

So you claim that 10 well paid engineers are better than 15 average paid engineers?

brokencode 4y ago
Apple has enough money that they don’t have to reduce headcount to be able to afford higher salaries.