4 ms·

It may not be true anymore, but that doesn't mean that Hollywood made everything up about that! Ever heard of Jesse James? The point is...thieves go where the m

by WayneDB 15y ago

It may not be true anymore, but that doesn't mean that Hollywood made everything up about that! Ever heard of Jesse James? The point is...thieves go where the money is. Okay, so fine you don't like my analogy. Let's fix it for you then: If you found a large oasis in the middle of a desert, would you pass it by in order to find a smaller one?

Samuel_Michon 15y ago
"thieves go where the money is." I'm sure robbers do risk assessment. If a bakery has half the cash a bank has but no security and a better escape route, they will much rather rob a bakery. "If you found a large oasis in the middle of a desert, would you pass it by in order to find a smaller one?" Alright, let's use that analogy. Which is the large oasis, Mac or Windows? Windows has a larger installed base. However, most Windows computers have virus protection and Microsoft puts a lot of effort into improving security. Mac OS X has a smaller installed base, but practically no one bothers with virus protection and security doesn't seem to be Apple's number one priority. That's why I think Mac OS X is a lot more interesting to cyber criminals, it's an enormous oasis. And yet, there haven't been any attacks of scale -- if there had been, it would be front page news. Perhaps OS X is safer than you want to admit?
- WayneDB 15y ago
  No, it's not safer than I'd like to admit just because you don't agree with my analogy. I am relying on empirical evidence, thank you very much. Are you one of those people who thinks that the Mac has fallen first at Pwn2Own because it's a "nicer" computer that all the hackers want? Because that's not the case at all. It's been shown a number of times that OS X can be rooted more easily than Windows. So, no I don't think it's "safer" because of anything technical either. Even if it were though, that wouldn't matter. Windows is safe, yet it can be hacked much like any OS. The only remaining possibility must be true: Hackers don't pay little attention to OS X because too few targets are using them to make it worth the effort. Windows is the larger oasis (quite obviously to the non-obstinate reader). This is because even with virus protection, you can't protect users from themselves and more users means more chances to try. If a malprogrammer can get you to run a binary, you're done. If OS X were the more popular OS and it were being run by almost every business in the world that utilize computers, then I have zero doubt that it would have the same problem as Windows in that regard. I don't think that it will ever be a problem though for Apple since I doubt OS X could ever reach the same market penetration within the highly hacker-targeted business and enterprise market. So, people can go on believing what they want I guess.
  - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
    Wow, so much to respond to... I'll limit it to what I think is the core of your message: Why would cyber criminals be more interested in breaking into some empty business desktop, if they can break into a personal desktop filled with personal information like credit card numbers and iTunes/Paypal/Bank logins?
    - WayneDB 15y ago
      Why don't you just tell me why you think the Mac is safer despite empirical evidence the says otherwise? That'd probably be quicker than me trying to explain to you why the Mac is worthless target. (Actually a no explanation is typically needed for that since the market share numbers don't lie. I just think you're being extremely obstinate at this point, so there's no way you'll see that. You might as well attempt to prove _your_ point to me since there's obviously no way you'll accept _my_ point.)
      - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
        "Why don't you just tell me why you think the Mac is safer" I'll let Pwn2Own winner Charlie Miller answer that for me: "I'd say that Macs are less secure [...] but are more safe because there simply isn't much malware out there. For now, I'd still recommend Macs for typical users as the odds of something targeting them are so low that they might go years without seeing any malware, even though if an attacker cared to target them it would be easier for them." http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pwn2own-mac-hack,2254-6.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pwn2own-mac-hack,2254-6....
        WayneDB 15y ago
        Thanks for proving my point. It's not _technically_ safer. It's security by obscurity.
        Samuel_Michon 15y ago
        A 58 million Mac installed base, more than 250 million iOS devices sold, and you're still arguing obscurity? That's commitment. http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/04/250-million-ios-devices-sold/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/04/250-million-ios-devices-sol...

by WayneDB 15y ago

Samuel_Michon 15y ago

"thieves go where the money is." I'm sure robbers do risk assessment. If a bakery has half the cash a bank has but no security and a better escape route, they will much rather rob a bakery. "If you found a large oasis in the middle of a desert, would you pass it by in order to find a smaller one?" Alright, let's use that analogy. Which is the large oasis, Mac or Windows? Windows has a larger installed base. However, most Windows computers have virus protection and Microsoft puts a lot of effort into improving security. Mac OS X has a smaller installed base, but practically no one bothers with virus protection and security doesn't seem to be Apple's number one priority. That's why I think Mac OS X is a lot more interesting to cyber criminals, it's an enormous oasis. And yet, there haven't been any attacks of scale -- if there had been, it would be front page news. Perhaps OS X is safer than you want to admit?

WayneDB 15y ago
No, it's not safer than I'd like to admit just because you don't agree with my analogy. I am relying on empirical evidence, thank you very much. Are you one of those people who thinks that the Mac has fallen first at Pwn2Own because it's a "nicer" computer that all the hackers want? Because that's not the case at all. It's been shown a number of times that OS X can be rooted more easily than Windows. So, no I don't think it's "safer" because of anything technical either. Even if it were though, that wouldn't matter. Windows is safe, yet it can be hacked much like any OS. The only remaining possibility must be true: Hackers don't pay little attention to OS X because too few targets are using them to make it worth the effort. Windows is the larger oasis (quite obviously to the non-obstinate reader). This is because even with virus protection, you can't protect users from themselves and more users means more chances to try. If a malprogrammer can get you to run a binary, you're done. If OS X were the more popular OS and it were being run by almost every business in the world that utilize computers, then I have zero doubt that it would have the same problem as Windows in that regard. I don't think that it will ever be a problem though for Apple since I doubt OS X could ever reach the same market penetration within the highly hacker-targeted business and enterprise market. So, people can go on believing what they want I guess.
- Samuel_Michon 15y ago
  Wow, so much to respond to... I'll limit it to what I think is the core of your message: Why would cyber criminals be more interested in breaking into some empty business desktop, if they can break into a personal desktop filled with personal information like credit card numbers and iTunes/Paypal/Bank logins?
  - WayneDB 15y ago
    Why don't you just tell me why you think the Mac is safer despite empirical evidence the says otherwise? That'd probably be quicker than me trying to explain to you why the Mac is worthless target. (Actually a no explanation is typically needed for that since the market share numbers don't lie. I just think you're being extremely obstinate at this point, so there's no way you'll see that. You might as well attempt to prove _your_ point to me since there's obviously no way you'll accept _my_ point.)
    - Samuel_Michon 15y ago
      "Why don't you just tell me why you think the Mac is safer" I'll let Pwn2Own winner Charlie Miller answer that for me: "I'd say that Macs are less secure [...] but are more safe because there simply isn't much malware out there. For now, I'd still recommend Macs for typical users as the odds of something targeting them are so low that they might go years without seeing any malware, even though if an attacker cared to target them it would be easier for them." http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pwn2own-mac-hack,2254-6.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pwn2own-mac-hack,2254-6....
      - WayneDB 15y ago
        Thanks for proving my point. It's not _technically_ safer. It's security by obscurity.
        Samuel_Michon 15y ago
        A 58 million Mac installed base, more than 250 million iOS devices sold, and you're still arguing obscurity? That's commitment. http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/04/250-million-ios-devices-sold/ http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/04/250-million-ios-devices-sol...