3 ms·

For everyone reading, being on the hiring side I would advise against bootcamps. We pretty much stopped recruiting from those because the signal to noise ratio

For everyone reading, being on the hiring side I would advise against bootcamps. We pretty much stopped recruiting from those because the signal to noise ratio was just too low. It seems a lot of bootcamps teach with rote, rather than by looking at the underlying concepts. My favorite example is git. I've seen bootcamp grads claim they can use git, but what it really meant is that they memorized a few git commands and as long as they don't stray too far from those, they can sort of work using git. But cherry-picking, rebase, proper branching forget it. I'm extremely skeptical of bootcamps, especially after learning that some of the TA's at Lambda (the most famous one) are hired to help with teaching as little as two months into the program as students[0]. I guess that counts toward their "placement" stats! Not only that, but Lambda seems so desperate that they will offer a fresh grad at no cost to any company for a 4 weeks trial period. [1]. And that's, sadly, the most high profile one out there. I don't think I've seen a single hire out of a bootcamp work out in the end. Except a few cases where the person actually came from a STEM degree from a good school (and more crucially, already had some exposure to programming during the degree) but it's unclear to me that they actually needed the bootcamp and not just a good primer on modern software development and something like the Missing Semester [2] or a few classes at their school covering software engineering. Notice there's no "Law Bootcamp" out there. [0] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/lambda-schools-job-placement-rate-is-lower-than-claimed.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/02/lambda-schools-job-p... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25138610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25138610 [2] https://missing.csail.mit.edu/ https://missing.csail.mit.edu/

threatofrain 4y ago
Many bootcamps are somewhere on the order of 3 months. That's not enough time for a conceptual or rote framing of skills for any dev domain. If people do come out with fundamental dev skills that would be due to their own volition.
giraffe_lady 4y ago
> good primer on modern software development and something like the Missing Semester That's... what a boot camp is? It's been 5-6 years since I was involved with one and the marketing has always promised a lot more than anyone could deliver, but the best ones were always basically that. 2-3 months is enough time for a motivated person to get the basics of a framework, and enough of the abstract mechanics of modern web development that they can implement solutions that are adequately described to them. Yes that's very "junior" and yes they will have huge gaps in their understanding of software "under the hood." But honestly a lot of modern web development benefits from but does not require that knowledge at the beginning. They will fill those in an astonishing amount over the first year working if supported properly. I know that hurts to hear because we know our work is complex and difficult. But not all of it is, and it's not necessary that you master the hard parts before beginning the work at all. That practical insight is still valuable and one we should take to heart. I always seek out code school grads when hiring because honestly they tend to be pretty interesting confident people who know how to take calculated risks and work as part of a team. They almost all had other careers first and bring surprising and valuable experiences and skills. Hiring someone fresh out a code school is a responsibility for sure, they truly do need more and different kinds of support for their first six months or so. But one like 2+ years into their career? Not all great programmers are great developers you know? but code school grads tend to overperform their technical ability in my experience.
butbutbut123456 4y ago
I dunno. I work with a bunch of bootcamp grads and they're good. We spend a bunch of time mentoring though. I haven't met someone I can't mentor and have solid within a few months
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  > 54 minutes ago > user: butbutbut123456 > created: 56 minutes ago > karma: 1 Weird how every time some bootcamps are mentioned there are brand new accounts posting about how great their grads are. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260605
  - butbutbut123456 4y ago
    I'm pretty anti commenting and social media. But felt compelled to put my thumb on the scale for this one. Mentoring newbs is easy. Do it and you'll get good results. Or don't. I have nothing to do with bootcamps.

threatofrain 4y ago

Many bootcamps are somewhere on the order of 3 months. That's not enough time for a conceptual or rote framing of skills for any dev domain. If people do come out with fundamental dev skills that would be due to their own volition.

giraffe_lady 4y ago

> good primer on modern software development and something like the Missing Semester That's... what a boot camp is? It's been 5-6 years since I was involved with one and the marketing has always promised a lot more than anyone could deliver, but the best ones were always basically that. 2-3 months is enough time for a motivated person to get the basics of a framework, and enough of the abstract mechanics of modern web development that they can implement solutions that are adequately described to them. Yes that's very "junior" and yes they will have huge gaps in their understanding of software "under the hood." But honestly a lot of modern web development benefits from but does not require that knowledge at the beginning. They will fill those in an astonishing amount over the first year working if supported properly. I know that hurts to hear because we know our work is complex and difficult. But not all of it is, and it's not necessary that you master the hard parts before beginning the work at all. That practical insight is still valuable and one we should take to heart. I always seek out code school grads when hiring because honestly they tend to be pretty interesting confident people who know how to take calculated risks and work as part of a team. They almost all had other careers first and bring surprising and valuable experiences and skills. Hiring someone fresh out a code school is a responsibility for sure, they truly do need more and different kinds of support for their first six months or so. But one like 2+ years into their career? Not all great programmers are great developers you know? but code school grads tend to overperform their technical ability in my experience.

butbutbut123456 4y ago

I dunno. I work with a bunch of bootcamp grads and they're good. We spend a bunch of time mentoring though. I haven't met someone I can't mentor and have solid within a few months

908B64B197 4y ago
> 54 minutes ago > user: butbutbut123456 > created: 56 minutes ago > karma: 1 Weird how every time some bootcamps are mentioned there are brand new accounts posting about how great their grads are. [0] [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260605 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260605
- butbutbut123456 4y ago
  I'm pretty anti commenting and social media. But felt compelled to put my thumb on the scale for this one. Mentoring newbs is easy. Do it and you'll get good results. Or don't. I have nothing to do with bootcamps.