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> It has to lose, and it has to be unequivocally seen to lose, for this fascist fantasy to end. Can't agree more on this part, its a bully that understands on

> It has to lose, and it has to be unequivocally seen to lose, for this fascist fantasy to end. Can't agree more on this part, its a bully that understands only force of the stronger, any concept of law, fairness, democracy etc. are simply not present there. Soft approach is publicly maybe welcomed, but privately laughed at as clear show of weakness. I am vastly disappointed by Macron's attempts to still please him, to have some sort of 'graceful loss' like something similar is possible right now or acceptable by either side. I guess you can afford some pompous PR bullshit like that if there are multiple big countries between you and the invader. A bit sad considering France didn't have it rosy with germans in WWII but I guess that memory is too old now, and its more important to get french car factories in Russia again running (or honestly I can't get another good reason for such stance, EU is facing by far biggest military threat since its existence and such stance is completely irrational when looking on it from long term perspective).

soco 4y ago
I didn't see any concessions having been offered by Macron. Talking at lengths on the phone? Yes, and I'm fine that - a phone call is a phone call and nobody dies because of that. Much better than a ww3 by any measure. I couldn't care less about what Putler is laughing at in private, important is that Russia, maybe maybe, stops killing.
- effie 4y ago
  Good point. It costs so little to keep the channels open. Provided we keep the deterrence effective. It is okay to talk, if we at the same time demonstrate we aren't weak and are not afraid.
sofixa 4y ago
I think Macron is coming from a realistic position. Ukraine cannot win in the traditional sense (capturing Moscow (although even that was insufficient for Napoleon) and forcing a surrender). It has to force Russia's surrender through other means - making the war unpopular, too costly in men and money, etc. This could literally take years since Russia is a dictatorship with lots of humans to sacrifice. Giving Putin an "honourable out" is probably the fastest way to bring the war to a stop. It's highly unlikely it will work, on multiple levels - Russia wouldn't agree, Ukraine sure as hell won't, and even if they did, it wouldn't last. Still, you can see where Macron is coming from - be it for humanitarian or practical reasons ( like the fact that the EU needs Russian gas for the foreseeable future and keeps paying to Russia, or that pushing an unhinged man with nuclear weapons to desperation might not end well). In any case, yes, Russia must lose decisively, Germany WWII style, not Germany WWI style where the population didn't get it.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  It would be great if Macron could clarify exactly what he means by "allowing Putin to save face" and not "humiliating" him. Does it involve Ukraine agreeing to territorial concessions, for example? A simple yes or now will let Ukrainians know exactly what adjectives/expletives to use when referring to Macron going forward.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    It's not up to Macron to decide that. It looks like he's just trying to keep a dialogue open, and casually remind that the lunatic on the other side has backed himself into a corner and has nukes.
    - kspacewalk2 4y ago
      Unfortunately that lunatic interprets any attempts to negotiate as a sign of weakness. So until he's forced to negotiate, he won't. Why try?
      - sofixa 4y ago
        Because he's dictator, when he's forced to negotiate he'll appear weak, which can be lethal for a "strongman" like him.
petre 4y ago
Macron has put too much faith in French diplomacy. While I somehow got to like him, I think this attempt is misguided. What France should do now is arm Ukraine. They sold weapons to the Russians for far too long. Anyway, I really hate how everybody (especially on Russian TV) makes fun of him wasting time on the phone. Macron has to ask himself what would De Gaulle do. Of couurse, the context today is quite different.
effie 4y ago
> its a bully that understands only force of the stronger, any concept of law, fairness, democracy etc. are simply not present there. Soft approach is publicly maybe welcomed, but privately laughed at as clear show of weakness. I almost agree, except on democracy. This type is not something strange unseen at home, it is a common mindset among ambitious powerful persons in Europe and the West as well. And here at home just as in Russia, these types often enjoy democratic support. Hitler was a democratically elected and supported leader. Orban is too. Brexit leaders were too. Trump just as well. We can't just magically get rid of this type of leader and its threat to us, calling for more democracy and law. Our politics, business and culture are full of such gangster types, and in some cases they do have democratic support. I write this to point out that we should be realist on these things, not indulge in indignation and moral superiority. Russia has a strongman leadership that we fear, but they probably look at us the same way, with valid reasons. After all, the West did reveal its nasty face in Serbia, Iraq, Libya, and so on. That did not evade Putin's attention. > I am vastly disappointed by Macron's attempts to still please him... A bit sad considering France didn't have it rosy with germans in WWII...honestly I can't get another good reason for such stance, EU is facing by far biggest military threat since its existence and such stance is completely irrational when looking on it from long term perspective). France benefited by folding to Hitler - they limited destruction and loss of lives. And Hitler did not even have nuclear weapons. Some people do not realize it, but the game has changed, it now involves planetary scale destruction. Americans/NATO understand this and measure their response carefully. Macron's activities seem a valid strategy, considering it is just good manners, keeping that channel opened. It is infuriating for the Ukraine leadership, yes, it helps Putin, yes, it is not ideal, yes, but it is in the interest of big business to get back to business. A gangster knows when to go to war, and when to make a deal with another gangster. That's the realpolitik. > EU is facing by far biggest military threat since its existence and such stance is completely irrational when looking on it from long term perspective Soviet Union was much bigger threat. Nobody expects present-day Russia to take on any NATO country.

soco 4y ago

I didn't see any concessions having been offered by Macron. Talking at lengths on the phone? Yes, and I'm fine that - a phone call is a phone call and nobody dies because of that. Much better than a ww3 by any measure. I couldn't care less about what Putler is laughing at in private, important is that Russia, maybe maybe, stops killing.

effie 4y ago
Good point. It costs so little to keep the channels open. Provided we keep the deterrence effective. It is okay to talk, if we at the same time demonstrate we aren't weak and are not afraid.

sofixa 4y ago

I think Macron is coming from a realistic position. Ukraine cannot win in the traditional sense (capturing Moscow (although even that was insufficient for Napoleon) and forcing a surrender). It has to force Russia's surrender through other means - making the war unpopular, too costly in men and money, etc. This could literally take years since Russia is a dictatorship with lots of humans to sacrifice. Giving Putin an "honourable out" is probably the fastest way to bring the war to a stop. It's highly unlikely it will work, on multiple levels - Russia wouldn't agree, Ukraine sure as hell won't, and even if they did, it wouldn't last. Still, you can see where Macron is coming from - be it for humanitarian or practical reasons ( like the fact that the EU needs Russian gas for the foreseeable future and keeps paying to Russia, or that pushing an unhinged man with nuclear weapons to desperation might not end well). In any case, yes, Russia must lose decisively, Germany WWII style, not Germany WWI style where the population didn't get it.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
It would be great if Macron could clarify exactly what he means by "allowing Putin to save face" and not "humiliating" him. Does it involve Ukraine agreeing to territorial concessions, for example? A simple yes or now will let Ukrainians know exactly what adjectives/expletives to use when referring to Macron going forward.
- sofixa 4y ago
  It's not up to Macron to decide that. It looks like he's just trying to keep a dialogue open, and casually remind that the lunatic on the other side has backed himself into a corner and has nukes.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    Unfortunately that lunatic interprets any attempts to negotiate as a sign of weakness. So until he's forced to negotiate, he won't. Why try?
    - sofixa 4y ago
      Because he's dictator, when he's forced to negotiate he'll appear weak, which can be lethal for a "strongman" like him.

petre 4y ago

Macron has put too much faith in French diplomacy. While I somehow got to like him, I think this attempt is misguided. What France should do now is arm Ukraine. They sold weapons to the Russians for far too long. Anyway, I really hate how everybody (especially on Russian TV) makes fun of him wasting time on the phone. Macron has to ask himself what would De Gaulle do. Of couurse, the context today is quite different.

effie 4y ago

> its a bully that understands only force of the stronger, any concept of law, fairness, democracy etc. are simply not present there. Soft approach is publicly maybe welcomed, but privately laughed at as clear show of weakness. I almost agree, except on democracy. This type is not something strange unseen at home, it is a common mindset among ambitious powerful persons in Europe and the West as well. And here at home just as in Russia, these types often enjoy democratic support. Hitler was a democratically elected and supported leader. Orban is too. Brexit leaders were too. Trump just as well. We can't just magically get rid of this type of leader and its threat to us, calling for more democracy and law. Our politics, business and culture are full of such gangster types, and in some cases they do have democratic support. I write this to point out that we should be realist on these things, not indulge in indignation and moral superiority. Russia has a strongman leadership that we fear, but they probably look at us the same way, with valid reasons. After all, the West did reveal its nasty face in Serbia, Iraq, Libya, and so on. That did not evade Putin's attention. > I am vastly disappointed by Macron's attempts to still please him... A bit sad considering France didn't have it rosy with germans in WWII...honestly I can't get another good reason for such stance, EU is facing by far biggest military threat since its existence and such stance is completely irrational when looking on it from long term perspective). France benefited by folding to Hitler - they limited destruction and loss of lives. And Hitler did not even have nuclear weapons. Some people do not realize it, but the game has changed, it now involves planetary scale destruction. Americans/NATO understand this and measure their response carefully. Macron's activities seem a valid strategy, considering it is just good manners, keeping that channel opened. It is infuriating for the Ukraine leadership, yes, it helps Putin, yes, it is not ideal, yes, but it is in the interest of big business to get back to business. A gangster knows when to go to war, and when to make a deal with another gangster. That's the realpolitik. > EU is facing by far biggest military threat since its existence and such stance is completely irrational when looking on it from long term perspective Soviet Union was much bigger threat. Nobody expects present-day Russia to take on any NATO country.