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Surprising absolutely nobody except the people who said that the best strategy was for Ukraine to immediately surrender.

by synu 4y ago

kspacewalk2 4y ago
Guys he will totally be satisfied with just cleaving off Donbass and maybe a slice of the south. Gotta give him something, can't humiliate the poor fuhrer.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  > the poor fuhrer I’ll steal that.
- techdragon 4y ago
  Look, it’s totally fine, heil just take the Sudetenland that he wants and then it will all be fine.
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm sure the people living there will be all reich with that.
    - kspacewalk2 4y ago
      (They were, BTW. They enthusiastically supported it.)
vkou 4y ago
In the first few days of the war, and the utter collapse of the border, it wasn't clear that Ukraine might actually hold on. Or that Russia was a paper tiger. Or that sanctions against it would happen by the weekend, and be as comprehensive as they were.
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  Sure, but these same people are still saying Ukraine should surrender.
  - vkou 4y ago
    Some of those people still are. Others are not.
d0mine 4y ago
Are you familiar with the term "echo-chamber"? Try to read something you know very well in the media and understand that there is no reason for other parts that you know less to be more correct (even if you believe naively that there is no propaganda).
- synu 4y ago
  Yes I am familiar, and also aware of propaganda as a concept. Having lived in Ukraine, that’s a part of the world that I understand. What’s the implication you’re making here? I’m not really following what conclusion you’re expecting me to reach.
  - gjs278 4y ago
- epistasis 4y ago
  This is very condescending, but I'm not even sure what you mean. Read more widely, because you believe this person has swallowed propaganda? Because OP pointed out the failed predictions of some people with poor understanding of word politics?
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Echo chamber is a different problem with the media. What you are describing is "Knoll's Law".
  - d0mine 4y ago
    Imagine, both can be true at the same time.
secondcoming 4y ago
My YT feed is full of channels like The Duran, Gonzalo Lira, Scott Ritter, Patrick Lancaster. They’re all appalling but really effective. They’ve been trained well.
- fodmap 4y ago
  All of them are promoting Putin's propaganda. I suggest you to balance your news ingestion ;)
TeeMassive 4y ago
Obama actually said back in 2014 he didn't give weapons to Ukraine because it would lead them to a useless attrition war that they would lose anyway.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > Obama actually said back in 2014 he didn't give weapons to Ukraine because it would lead them to a useless attrition war that they would lose anyway Kyiv recapitulating Kabul was basically every Western analyst's assessment until at least several days into the war. If Russia had executed a lightning strike there would have been little war and, likely, few long-term consequences.
  - synu 4y ago
    The surprise was that they were functionally incapable of doing so due to corruption and other systemic problems.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      Sure. Nevertheless, OP bringing up Obama's Crimea-era thoughts on a Russo-Ukrainian conflict isn't relevant to the situation today.
- epistasis 4y ago
  Obama may be proven right, but I certainly hope he is proven wrong, or at least that this phase of the war by Russia will prove that he might have been wrong. But it's also important to know that Ukraine's army today is far different than that of 2014. In 2014, Ukraine's army was far more like Russia's in training and leadership, except it also had many pro-Putin leaders that have now been purged from leadership. There has also been a big change in style of leadership, as has been shown throughout this phase of the war. In 2014, there was an argument for doing more: https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/2014/11/28/opinion-a-case-for-doing-more-for-ukraine/ https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/2014/11/28/opinion-a-case-...

Surprising absolutely nobody except the people who said that the best strategy was for Ukraine to immediately surrender.

by synu 4y ago

Surprising absolutely nobody except the people who said that the best strategy was for Ukraine to immediately surrender.

kspacewalk2 4y ago

Guys he will totally be satisfied with just cleaving off Donbass and maybe a slice of the south. Gotta give him something, can't humiliate the poor fuhrer.

credit_guy 4y ago
> the poor fuhrer I’ll steal that.
techdragon 4y ago
Look, it’s totally fine, heil just take the Sudetenland that he wants and then it will all be fine.
- dane-pgp 4y ago
  Yeah, I'm sure the people living there will be all reich with that.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    (They were, BTW. They enthusiastically supported it.)

vkou 4y ago

In the first few days of the war, and the utter collapse of the border, it wasn't clear that Ukraine might actually hold on. Or that Russia was a paper tiger. Or that sanctions against it would happen by the weekend, and be as comprehensive as they were.

wonderwonder 4y ago
Sure, but these same people are still saying Ukraine should surrender.
- vkou 4y ago
  Some of those people still are. Others are not.

d0mine 4y ago

Are you familiar with the term "echo-chamber"? Try to read something you know very well in the media and understand that there is no reason for other parts that you know less to be more correct (even if you believe naively that there is no propaganda).

synu 4y ago
Yes I am familiar, and also aware of propaganda as a concept. Having lived in Ukraine, that’s a part of the world that I understand. What’s the implication you’re making here? I’m not really following what conclusion you’re expecting me to reach.
- gjs278 4y ago
epistasis 4y ago
This is very condescending, but I'm not even sure what you mean. Read more widely, because you believe this person has swallowed propaganda? Because OP pointed out the failed predictions of some people with poor understanding of word politics?
bryanlarsen 4y ago
Echo chamber is a different problem with the media. What you are describing is "Knoll's Law".
- d0mine 4y ago
  Imagine, both can be true at the same time.

secondcoming 4y ago

My YT feed is full of channels like The Duran, Gonzalo Lira, Scott Ritter, Patrick Lancaster. They’re all appalling but really effective. They’ve been trained well.

fodmap 4y ago
All of them are promoting Putin's propaganda. I suggest you to balance your news ingestion ;)

TeeMassive 4y ago

Obama actually said back in 2014 he didn't give weapons to Ukraine because it would lead them to a useless attrition war that they would lose anyway.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Obama actually said back in 2014 he didn't give weapons to Ukraine because it would lead them to a useless attrition war that they would lose anyway Kyiv recapitulating Kabul was basically every Western analyst's assessment until at least several days into the war. If Russia had executed a lightning strike there would have been little war and, likely, few long-term consequences.
- synu 4y ago
  The surprise was that they were functionally incapable of doing so due to corruption and other systemic problems.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    Sure. Nevertheless, OP bringing up Obama's Crimea-era thoughts on a Russo-Ukrainian conflict isn't relevant to the situation today.
epistasis 4y ago
Obama may be proven right, but I certainly hope he is proven wrong, or at least that this phase of the war by Russia will prove that he might have been wrong. But it's also important to know that Ukraine's army today is far different than that of 2014. In 2014, Ukraine's army was far more like Russia's in training and leadership, except it also had many pro-Putin leaders that have now been purged from leadership. There has also been a big change in style of leadership, as has been shown throughout this phase of the war. In 2014, there was an argument for doing more: https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/2014/11/28/opinion-a-case-for-doing-more-for-ukraine/ https://www.armytimes.com/opinion/2014/11/28/opinion-a-case-...