4 ms·

Not that this excuses false promises, but: why should expatriates who left a country decades ago get any say in pivotal decisions on its future? That seems like

by patrec 4y ago

Not that this excuses false promises, but: why should expatriates who left a country decades ago get any say in pivotal decisions on its future? That seems like a really dumb idea. > But Brexit was different. It directly affected my rights as a citizen You got some nice free perks at no cost to yourself and are now sore that the people who had had a less lopsided exposure (i.e. needed to shoulder costs for benefits you could enjoy without downside) decided, rightly or wrongly, the costs (non-existent to you) were not worth the benefits. I can see how that would be annoying to you personally, and I will not attempt to defend anything else about Brexit, but generally few decision making processes are improved by voluntarily involving more free-riders.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
> why should expatriates who left a country decades ago get any say in pivotal decisions on its future? That seems like a really dumb idea We don't. If you have not resided there for 15 years or longer, you have no vote. And I'm totally fine with that, it makes sense to me, for a variety of reasons, including that I pay no taxes in the UK, and that to a large degree nothing that happens in the UK affects me directly (it does affect my family, but they all get their own vote). However, most democracies have a general policy of not taking away the rights and priviledges of citizenship without giving those affected a vote to at least nominally affect the decision. I remain a UK citizen and could return there to reside at any time. It is precisely because (a) this is a pivotal decision about the future and (b) it was a decision that would change the status of anyone with UK citizenship, whether or not they resided there, that I felt that someone like myself should have been able to vote. So for example, had Brexit actually been a vote on some sort of reconfiguration of the relationship with the EU that ended up with UK citizens still having the same individual relationship with the EU (unlikely, but you can half imagine it, I think), again, I don't think that people like me should have been able to vote. But when you're going to strip millions of people with the right to permanently reside in the UK of their relationship with the EU, it seems democratic and fair to me that you give them some say. And Cameron apparently felt that way too, or at least voiced that opinion during his final election campaign, but then didn't follow through (not really a surprise).
- throwaway67743 4y ago
  You should lose voting rights 12 months after you leave, which is when tax and residency starts being considered as "not" - I've said this before Brexit too,if you leave you lose all rights (including things like unemployment and healthcare) I say this as an expat and a vote leave individual (flame away).
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    That's a ridiculously short time. If someone takes a position in another part of the world (perhaps behind the wheel of a large automobile), for a year or two, they could trivially find themselves coming back to a government they were unable to vote for, which will govern their lives for up to 4-5 years. I'm not advocating for the rights of expats to be expanded, and I'd probably support some of them being shrunk somewhat, as a general rule. I just think that a once-in-several-generational essentially constitutional vote is different, and that the normal rules (which I support) should be modified for such a thing.
    - throwaway67743 4y ago
      There is a difference between being out of the country and making a choice to not be part of it, obviously it requires some degree of flexibility but you shouldn't be able to abandon the country and then expect benefits or any say in how it's run, same applies to any country. The easy other point is people who haven't even stepped foot in the country in decades are dictating to people who still live there and drawing money away despite contributing very little when they did live there and absolutely nothing for the past 20 years in their hovel in Spain or whatever the current sufferer of British expats is.
- Beldin 4y ago
  > had Brexit actually been ... Hindsight is 20/20; but this was Cameron's major oversight. The referendum should've been "more or less EU", not "yes or no EU". He would've gotten a very strong mandate for less and the EU would've been forced to accommodate. (They wouldn't want to risk losing the UK.) Alas.
Beldin 4y ago
A reason in favour of expats voting is that they should have a say on things that affect their citizenship. You can definitely argue how far that argument holds sway - after all, any government could change its citizenship rules for expats. But Brexit clearly was a different case than regular elections. The government was embarking upon a sea change for expats - changing the rules of the game while playing.

by patrec 4y ago

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

> why should expatriates who left a country decades ago get any say in pivotal decisions on its future? That seems like a really dumb idea We don't. If you have not resided there for 15 years or longer, you have no vote. And I'm totally fine with that, it makes sense to me, for a variety of reasons, including that I pay no taxes in the UK, and that to a large degree nothing that happens in the UK affects me directly (it does affect my family, but they all get their own vote). However, most democracies have a general policy of not taking away the rights and priviledges of citizenship without giving those affected a vote to at least nominally affect the decision. I remain a UK citizen and could return there to reside at any time. It is precisely because (a) this is a pivotal decision about the future and (b) it was a decision that would change the status of anyone with UK citizenship, whether or not they resided there, that I felt that someone like myself should have been able to vote. So for example, had Brexit actually been a vote on some sort of reconfiguration of the relationship with the EU that ended up with UK citizens still having the same individual relationship with the EU (unlikely, but you can half imagine it, I think), again, I don't think that people like me should have been able to vote. But when you're going to strip millions of people with the right to permanently reside in the UK of their relationship with the EU, it seems democratic and fair to me that you give them some say. And Cameron apparently felt that way too, or at least voiced that opinion during his final election campaign, but then didn't follow through (not really a surprise).

throwaway67743 4y ago
You should lose voting rights 12 months after you leave, which is when tax and residency starts being considered as "not" - I've said this before Brexit too,if you leave you lose all rights (including things like unemployment and healthcare) I say this as an expat and a vote leave individual (flame away).
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  That's a ridiculously short time. If someone takes a position in another part of the world (perhaps behind the wheel of a large automobile), for a year or two, they could trivially find themselves coming back to a government they were unable to vote for, which will govern their lives for up to 4-5 years. I'm not advocating for the rights of expats to be expanded, and I'd probably support some of them being shrunk somewhat, as a general rule. I just think that a once-in-several-generational essentially constitutional vote is different, and that the normal rules (which I support) should be modified for such a thing.
  - throwaway67743 4y ago
    There is a difference between being out of the country and making a choice to not be part of it, obviously it requires some degree of flexibility but you shouldn't be able to abandon the country and then expect benefits or any say in how it's run, same applies to any country. The easy other point is people who haven't even stepped foot in the country in decades are dictating to people who still live there and drawing money away despite contributing very little when they did live there and absolutely nothing for the past 20 years in their hovel in Spain or whatever the current sufferer of British expats is.
Beldin 4y ago
> had Brexit actually been ... Hindsight is 20/20; but this was Cameron's major oversight. The referendum should've been "more or less EU", not "yes or no EU". He would've gotten a very strong mandate for less and the EU would've been forced to accommodate. (They wouldn't want to risk losing the UK.) Alas.

Beldin 4y ago

A reason in favour of expats voting is that they should have a say on things that affect their citizenship. You can definitely argue how far that argument holds sway - after all, any government could change its citizenship rules for expats. But Brexit clearly was a different case than regular elections. The government was embarking upon a sea change for expats - changing the rules of the game while playing.