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God only knows why we still have net immigration. I guess despite the way minorities and lower classes are "oppressed" we're still better than everywhere else s

by usrn 4y ago

God only knows why we still have net immigration. I guess despite the way minorities and lower classes are "oppressed" we're still better than everywhere else somehow?

Frost1x 4y ago
I'd say that and and the global propoganda machine is strong. There's many from outside the country who have a picture of what it's like to live here that doesn't align with reality. I think much of it is due to entertainment: movies, TV shows, etc. that give this false impression that everything is rosey all the time. The lower classes are abused here as well and classes do exist but it's probably better being poor in the US than being poor in most parts of the world. If nothing else you have access to emergency rooms and food, although you may not have real housing.
- redisman 4y ago
  Immigrants aren’t dumb. The problem is that westerners have no idea what a median persons life in Africa or South America is like
  - wincy 4y ago
    It’s true. I was asking a person I know from Kenya what’s it’s like there. She said it’s a beautiful please, pretty good but I’d have to hire security guards to avoid getting kidnapped and ransomed. We just don’t realize how good the US is.
    - usrn 4y ago
      There are places in the US you shouldn't go without security
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    Or even EU. There is a reason there is still brain drain from Europe to the US.
  - Frost1x 4y ago
    It's not that they're dumb, they're often simply unaware and misinformed. I had several international friends in college who studied in the US and almost all of them returned home. Many came to the US not just for education but intending to stay and do well for themselves. After dealing with the culture and environment here, most realized the places they came from weren't really all that bad and their opportunities there was just as good. Most assumed the US was NYC and LA everywhere. This is clearly in contrast to people coming from poverty in say Sri Lanka where even the worst here are often doing better in terms of human rights, access to ERs, access to shelters, etc.
Swizec 4y ago
As an immigrant I often wonder if America’s economy works so well in spite of or because of its policies. But one thing is clear: Last year I saved more money than I made in my last year in Europe. And that’s while paying rent in downtown SF To give a more surprising comparison - my country’s entire GDP fits into Apple's quarterly profits. The pie is large here.
- nopenopenopeno 4y ago
  America’s economy doesn’t work well at all for most people. It only works well for the rich, i.e. those who directly benefit from a higher GDP.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    I’m going to assume you’ve never lived in an economy where median wage is $1000/month. Because it sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about Everyone benefits from higher GDP. Yes the rich benefit more, but I promise you that everyone being equally destitute is no walk in the park either. Reading about the economic histories of South America, China, Eastern Europe, and Africa are great places to learn more about how low GDP is terrible for everyone involved.
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    Yes, that's why America is #1 for immigrants.
  - astrange 4y ago
    The rich are people who don't need the economy to do well. It's everyone else that relies on it. "The stock market isn't the economy" goes both ways.
nopenopenopeno 4y ago
The word is exploited. The lower classes are exploited.
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
The US is still a pretty good place for people with highly desirable skillsets, no / small families and specific mindsets. If you're Average Joe looking to start a family, a middling job and no assets or inheritance to your name, it's pretty mediocre (though some would argue "well you could learn programming").
squaresmile 4y ago
Like Swizec said, the pie is unfathomably large in the US compared to developing countries. There are many nooks and crannies you can slot yourself into. Sometimes I feel like on HN people can't fathom how to live in the US if you make less than double the median salary lol. It's not a walk in the park but it's manageable. It should also be noted that very few people immigrate even among people who have "plausible" paths to it. I don't think it's fair to draw much conclusion about the whole society from immigration flows.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Even on the remainder of the net, it's pretty difficult for others to get an idea what a modest living in the US is. On the flip side, many (less fortunate?) American anecdotes lament the lack of safety nets in America compared to Europe. Most anecdotes I read are either "I earn 200k+ and work 40 hours", "My job is my life and I do great love the American Dream" or "I can barely make rent and work 60 hours a day". I don't doubt average people survive but it sure would be nice to get an idea what "average" actually entails across an entire year. Especially someone who doesn't have a house or an inheritance on their name.
  - woobar 4y ago
    Are you asking about averages/medians across the country? Median family will have 1 child, earn $80K/year, pay <20% income taxes, live in 2400 sqft house, own two 12 year old cars and commute 1 hour/day to work. Will have ~15 vacation and another 10 days of paid holidays per year.
angarg12 4y ago
Don't know about others, but I can tell you my reasons: a) Higher salary b) Better career opportunities c) An idealized view of the American society a) is easiest. I more than doubled my income by moving here. If I jumped companies (I can't due to visa) I could easily expect a 50%-100% bump. That's nothing to scoff at. Even accounting for increased cost of living, we are talking about life changing amounts of money. Also it's impossible to not feel bad when you know that the junior eng. you are coaching due to perf issues makes more money than you, just because he lives in the US and you don't. b) is more subtle. I always had the perception that people at the main offices got better opportunities and faster promos than people at satellite offices. Other's have echoed these feelings, but I've never seen data. Outside the company, it is undeniable the job market is bigger and hotter here. Even the largest EU tech hubs don't come close. c) is the lousiest one. I haven't had much chance to experience it yet so I don't have much of an opinion. I'd say though that having lived in 5 different countries, there are other places with a culture that resonates with me. So yes, USA might be better than my home country, but there are alternatives. Now due to Covid points a) and b) are becoming less important. Salaries in the EU have gone up, and with mostly remote workforces career opportunities are better distributed. c) was always subjective and a matter of taste. So far I haven't got a great image of the American society, but our landing here has been particularly rough. I think I'll give it a couple of years before I pass judgement.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  >Salaries in the EU have gone up Source on this? Preferably with respect to inflation. >and with mostly remote workforces career opportunities are better distributed I think you're overestimating the effects of this. Companies are already making a fuss about remote work in the same time zone, let alone 4-6 time zones apart.
  - angarg12 4y ago
    That's fair. Most of it is hear say and anecdotal evidence. I know my company has increased salaries but that's one data point. The only data I got from the top of my head is levels.fyi annual report. Numbers are all over the place but it shows a general upward trend. These numbers are from past years so they shouldn't account for the massive inflation of late. Regarding opportunities, again this is mostly personal and anecdotal evidence. Due to Covid I worked remotely across the ocean for 2 years. Last year I got a top perf rating and I got my case for promo, despite being the only person in the whole org working 8 hours apart. I feel in EU there were more project with collaborations between people from different countries compared to pre-covid. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/2019/ https://www.levels.fyi/2019/ [2] https://www.levels.fyi/2020/ https://www.levels.fyi/2020/ [3] https://www.levels.fyi/2021/ https://www.levels.fyi/2021/

by usrn 4y ago

God only knows why we still have net immigration. I guess despite the way minorities and lower classes are "oppressed" we're still better than everywhere else somehow?

Frost1x 4y ago

I'd say that and and the global propoganda machine is strong. There's many from outside the country who have a picture of what it's like to live here that doesn't align with reality. I think much of it is due to entertainment: movies, TV shows, etc. that give this false impression that everything is rosey all the time. The lower classes are abused here as well and classes do exist but it's probably better being poor in the US than being poor in most parts of the world. If nothing else you have access to emergency rooms and food, although you may not have real housing.

redisman 4y ago
Immigrants aren’t dumb. The problem is that westerners have no idea what a median persons life in Africa or South America is like
- wincy 4y ago
  It’s true. I was asking a person I know from Kenya what’s it’s like there. She said it’s a beautiful please, pretty good but I’d have to hire security guards to avoid getting kidnapped and ransomed. We just don’t realize how good the US is.
  - usrn 4y ago
    There are places in the US you shouldn't go without security
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  Or even EU. There is a reason there is still brain drain from Europe to the US.
- Frost1x 4y ago
  It's not that they're dumb, they're often simply unaware and misinformed. I had several international friends in college who studied in the US and almost all of them returned home. Many came to the US not just for education but intending to stay and do well for themselves. After dealing with the culture and environment here, most realized the places they came from weren't really all that bad and their opportunities there was just as good. Most assumed the US was NYC and LA everywhere. This is clearly in contrast to people coming from poverty in say Sri Lanka where even the worst here are often doing better in terms of human rights, access to ERs, access to shelters, etc.

Swizec 4y ago

As an immigrant I often wonder if America’s economy works so well in spite of or because of its policies. But one thing is clear: Last year I saved more money than I made in my last year in Europe. And that’s while paying rent in downtown SF To give a more surprising comparison - my country’s entire GDP fits into Apple's quarterly profits. The pie is large here.

nopenopenopeno 4y ago
America’s economy doesn’t work well at all for most people. It only works well for the rich, i.e. those who directly benefit from a higher GDP.
- Swizec 4y ago
  I’m going to assume you’ve never lived in an economy where median wage is $1000/month. Because it sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about Everyone benefits from higher GDP. Yes the rich benefit more, but I promise you that everyone being equally destitute is no walk in the park either. Reading about the economic histories of South America, China, Eastern Europe, and Africa are great places to learn more about how low GDP is terrible for everyone involved.
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  Yes, that's why America is #1 for immigrants.
- astrange 4y ago
  The rich are people who don't need the economy to do well. It's everyone else that relies on it. "The stock market isn't the economy" goes both ways.

nopenopenopeno 4y ago

The word is exploited. The lower classes are exploited.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

The US is still a pretty good place for people with highly desirable skillsets, no / small families and specific mindsets. If you're Average Joe looking to start a family, a middling job and no assets or inheritance to your name, it's pretty mediocre (though some would argue "well you could learn programming").

squaresmile 4y ago

Like Swizec said, the pie is unfathomably large in the US compared to developing countries. There are many nooks and crannies you can slot yourself into. Sometimes I feel like on HN people can't fathom how to live in the US if you make less than double the median salary lol. It's not a walk in the park but it's manageable. It should also be noted that very few people immigrate even among people who have "plausible" paths to it. I don't think it's fair to draw much conclusion about the whole society from immigration flows.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Even on the remainder of the net, it's pretty difficult for others to get an idea what a modest living in the US is. On the flip side, many (less fortunate?) American anecdotes lament the lack of safety nets in America compared to Europe. Most anecdotes I read are either "I earn 200k+ and work 40 hours", "My job is my life and I do great love the American Dream" or "I can barely make rent and work 60 hours a day". I don't doubt average people survive but it sure would be nice to get an idea what "average" actually entails across an entire year. Especially someone who doesn't have a house or an inheritance on their name.
- woobar 4y ago
  Are you asking about averages/medians across the country? Median family will have 1 child, earn $80K/year, pay <20% income taxes, live in 2400 sqft house, own two 12 year old cars and commute 1 hour/day to work. Will have ~15 vacation and another 10 days of paid holidays per year.

angarg12 4y ago

Don't know about others, but I can tell you my reasons: a) Higher salary b) Better career opportunities c) An idealized view of the American society a) is easiest. I more than doubled my income by moving here. If I jumped companies (I can't due to visa) I could easily expect a 50%-100% bump. That's nothing to scoff at. Even accounting for increased cost of living, we are talking about life changing amounts of money. Also it's impossible to not feel bad when you know that the junior eng. you are coaching due to perf issues makes more money than you, just because he lives in the US and you don't. b) is more subtle. I always had the perception that people at the main offices got better opportunities and faster promos than people at satellite offices. Other's have echoed these feelings, but I've never seen data. Outside the company, it is undeniable the job market is bigger and hotter here. Even the largest EU tech hubs don't come close. c) is the lousiest one. I haven't had much chance to experience it yet so I don't have much of an opinion. I'd say though that having lived in 5 different countries, there are other places with a culture that resonates with me. So yes, USA might be better than my home country, but there are alternatives. Now due to Covid points a) and b) are becoming less important. Salaries in the EU have gone up, and with mostly remote workforces career opportunities are better distributed. c) was always subjective and a matter of taste. So far I haven't got a great image of the American society, but our landing here has been particularly rough. I think I'll give it a couple of years before I pass judgement.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>Salaries in the EU have gone up Source on this? Preferably with respect to inflation. >and with mostly remote workforces career opportunities are better distributed I think you're overestimating the effects of this. Companies are already making a fuss about remote work in the same time zone, let alone 4-6 time zones apart.
- angarg12 4y ago
  That's fair. Most of it is hear say and anecdotal evidence. I know my company has increased salaries but that's one data point. The only data I got from the top of my head is levels.fyi annual report. Numbers are all over the place but it shows a general upward trend. These numbers are from past years so they shouldn't account for the massive inflation of late. Regarding opportunities, again this is mostly personal and anecdotal evidence. Due to Covid I worked remotely across the ocean for 2 years. Last year I got a top perf rating and I got my case for promo, despite being the only person in the whole org working 8 hours apart. I feel in EU there were more project with collaborations between people from different countries compared to pre-covid. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/2019/ https://www.levels.fyi/2019/ [2] https://www.levels.fyi/2020/ https://www.levels.fyi/2020/ [3] https://www.levels.fyi/2021/ https://www.levels.fyi/2021/