6 ms·

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potent

This is going do to absolutely nothing. Most of this legislation does nothing to really address the potential for folks to just advertise incredibly wide potential salary ranges, to say nothing of alternative ways that they can change total compensation "for the right candidate," if you catch my drift. I would suspect that the biggest effect of this is to actually lead to overall greater distrusts, as folks will make all sorts of assumptions based on the ranges they see for jobs at their companies, based on their own biases. True transparency which would require something like disclosure of average/median total compensation at the company for that role, for instance, would be incredibly meaningful, but it will never come.

naikrovek 4y ago
I want to be snarky and compliment you on your clairvoyance while pointing out that you are only guessing, and instead I'll just ask why you think this kind of thing is never coming, given that some companies already do this.
xhkkffbf 4y ago
I can see some heartache if they advertise the range as between $X to $Y and then they make an offer that is much closer to $X.
- Broken_Hippo 4y ago
  Possibly, but that's basically the applicants choice to go ahead and apply (within the normal confines of "choice" in work). At lest there is a bottom they can expect. This won't even be that often if the company is actually upfront about how it determines pay: Higher for x qualification, lower without the optional qualifications/experience. On the other hand, some folks will be happy about that bottom since it will be either more than they expected or more than they are making now.
psyc 4y ago
Internally, salary ranges at MS are quite narrow by job and level. Particularly since they're more compressed toward zero than at the FAANGs and Unicorns. Why would they invite trouble by not simply publishing those?
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Is this for like a level 6 dev? Will someone applyling know if they are a level 4 or a level 7 dev? How?
_fat_santa 4y ago
I live in CO and we recently had a similar law pass that required companies to disclose salary ranges. Like you said it does absolutely nothing, companies will list "Senior Software Engineer" with a salary of "$70k - $240k". This often times isn't even the range for the current position, but the "entire range" of offers they extend to any level of SWE.
- athorax 4y ago
  That is explicitly called out as not being allowed: "An employer cannot post a $70,000-$100,000 range for a junior accountant position just because it pays senior accountants at the high end of that range. But it can post $70,000-$100,000 for an accountant if it does not limit the posting to junior or senior accountants, and genuinely might offer as low as $70,000 for a junior accountant, or as much as $100,000 for a senior one." https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%239_%20Equal%20Pay%20Transparency%20Rules%20%28Revised%20July%202021%29.pdf https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%239_%20Eq...
  - zeroonetwothree 4y ago
    Seems impossible to enforce in practice
    - kimbernator 4y ago
      Due to my recent job search for remote positions in the US, I've seen a lot of postings in CO which include the salary ranges. While some do use stupidly wide ranges, most companies post more reasonable ones. I'm able to filter out those in the former group because this law they have has effectively exposed their dishonest hiring practices, and the companies that aren't trying to obfuscate their pay have also been exposed.
    - rednerrus 4y ago
      Can they just audit the actual salaries paid vs the range listed at the end of every year?
ironlake 4y ago
All regulations have limited effectiveness. This one is a step in the right direction. The tech industry tends to dismiss government action as misguided, unenforceable, or watered down. Meanwhile, the free market gives us Ring cameras where the data is fed directly to the state for illegal surveillance. Regulations are an integral part of a free society.
rootusrootus 4y ago
I tend to assume that, at best, a company advertising a range of X-Y is going to offer something around (X+Y)/2. So if you tell me some ridiculous range, I'm going to assume your offer will suck, and I'll just skip it. Everyone is better served by accurate ranges, it avoids both sides wasting time because of mismatched expectations.

naikrovek 4y ago

I want to be snarky and compliment you on your clairvoyance while pointing out that you are only guessing, and instead I'll just ask why you think this kind of thing is never coming, given that some companies already do this.

xhkkffbf 4y ago

I can see some heartache if they advertise the range as between $X to $Y and then they make an offer that is much closer to $X.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Possibly, but that's basically the applicants choice to go ahead and apply (within the normal confines of "choice" in work). At lest there is a bottom they can expect. This won't even be that often if the company is actually upfront about how it determines pay: Higher for x qualification, lower without the optional qualifications/experience. On the other hand, some folks will be happy about that bottom since it will be either more than they expected or more than they are making now.

psyc 4y ago

Internally, salary ranges at MS are quite narrow by job and level. Particularly since they're more compressed toward zero than at the FAANGs and Unicorns. Why would they invite trouble by not simply publishing those?

brianwawok 4y ago
Is this for like a level 6 dev? Will someone applyling know if they are a level 4 or a level 7 dev? How?

_fat_santa 4y ago

I live in CO and we recently had a similar law pass that required companies to disclose salary ranges. Like you said it does absolutely nothing, companies will list "Senior Software Engineer" with a salary of "$70k - $240k". This often times isn't even the range for the current position, but the "entire range" of offers they extend to any level of SWE.

athorax 4y ago
That is explicitly called out as not being allowed: "An employer cannot post a $70,000-$100,000 range for a junior accountant position just because it pays senior accountants at the high end of that range. But it can post $70,000-$100,000 for an accountant if it does not limit the posting to junior or senior accountants, and genuinely might offer as low as $70,000 for a junior accountant, or as much as $100,000 for a senior one." https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency https://cdle.colorado.gov/equalpaytransparency https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%239_%20Equal%20Pay%20Transparency%20Rules%20%28Revised%20July%202021%29.pdf https://cdle.colorado.gov/sites/cdle/files/INFO%20%239_%20Eq...
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Seems impossible to enforce in practice
  - kimbernator 4y ago
    Due to my recent job search for remote positions in the US, I've seen a lot of postings in CO which include the salary ranges. While some do use stupidly wide ranges, most companies post more reasonable ones. I'm able to filter out those in the former group because this law they have has effectively exposed their dishonest hiring practices, and the companies that aren't trying to obfuscate their pay have also been exposed.
  - rednerrus 4y ago
    Can they just audit the actual salaries paid vs the range listed at the end of every year?

ironlake 4y ago

All regulations have limited effectiveness. This one is a step in the right direction. The tech industry tends to dismiss government action as misguided, unenforceable, or watered down. Meanwhile, the free market gives us Ring cameras where the data is fed directly to the state for illegal surveillance. Regulations are an integral part of a free society.

rootusrootus 4y ago

I tend to assume that, at best, a company advertising a range of X-Y is going to offer something around (X+Y)/2. So if you tell me some ridiculous range, I'm going to assume your offer will suck, and I'll just skip it. Everyone is better served by accurate ranges, it avoids both sides wasting time because of mismatched expectations.