4 ms·

How convenient to "forget" "western" factors and blame everyone else instead.

dotancohen 4y ago
From the way I saw it the Western factors came later, mostly in response to Russian and ISIS involvement, and thus fall into the category of "the whole mess we see today". Though I do see your point, many people like to cherry-pick parts of conflicts that serve their worldview and ignore other parts, so it may appear to you that was what I did as well. Both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict love to discuss certain events and limit the discussion to only those periods during which their favoured side was "right". So that was in fact not my intention. You are invited and welcome to mention the Western factors that you see relevant.
- boomboomsubban 4y ago
  The Wikileaks diplomatic cables releases showed the US had been funding the opposition groups in Syria for years. Then, shortly after the war began CIA operation Timber Sycamore began supplying the opposition faction with weapons, supplies and training. Also, official US intervention happened before official Russian intervention. While I won't deny the Russian or ISIS involvement, the US was also always involved.
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    Thank you for mentioning that. I do have some reading to do this evening.
watwut 4y ago
This one was not caused by west in any way. West joined way later. Oh, and you conveniently ignore Russian factor too - they were the ones targeting hospitals and ranking up civilian causalities as a strategy.
- yonaguska 4y ago
  When you look at the role that the West played in the Arab spring movement in general, specifically Intel agencies destabilizing Libya, and supporting extremist movements, the rapid pull out of Iraq, when it was known that extremist factions were waiting for this to happen...the West had it's hands all over this. The West was involved from the beginning, just not in obvious ways.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Every time there are protests against a dictator, it is west doing. There is no way those dictatorships would had people protesting them when opportunity arises. It is all CIA opsec, whether Arab spring or Ukraine or anything. /s Nah.
    - yonaguska 4y ago
      Concerning Ukraine, the CIA literally funded the Banderas movement for years, even going so far as to protect people from the Nuremberg trials to ensure that Ukraine would have a resistance movement under the USSR. This is not classified information anymore. And until recently, you could listen to a phone call with Secretary Nuland as she discussed who should be placed into power in the anti-Lukaschenko movement. She also discusses how the EuroMaidan protests would need at least 100 dead in order to justify American support and intervention. Gaddafi, we enforced no fly zones and called on NATO to help the the Muslim brotherhood oust Gaddafi. In WikiLeaks cables, Clinton bragged about taking out Gaddafi, as well as in public, and Blumenthal even discussed investing in an arms company in order to profit from the conflict. In Syria, we watched no fly zones being established that protected ISIS, while ISIS was condemned publicly by the same politicians that protected them. Then the CIA sent arms to "moderate rebels" that were simply rebranded IS groups. Some of those groups, after receiving arms, went public with their allegiance to IS. Don't forget Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, another group that the US had a heavy hand in creating in order to creating. And we've done stuff like this on every single continent. Patrice Lumumba got too friendly with the Russians and communism. Haven't even gotten to South America. And I'm someone that would consider themselves very anti communist, but I can acknowledge that the US has been involved in some incredibly destructive behind the scenes foreign policy. This stuff isn't really disputed.

From the way I saw it the Western factors came later, mostly in response to Russian and ISIS involvement, and thus fall into the category of "the whole mess we see today". Though I do see your point, many people like to cherry-pick parts of conflicts that serve their worldview and ignore other parts, so it may appear to you that was what I did as well. Both sides of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict love to discuss certain events and limit the discussion to only those periods during which their favoured side was "right". So that was in fact not my intention. You are invited and welcome to mention the Western factors that you see relevant.

boomboomsubban 4y ago
The Wikileaks diplomatic cables releases showed the US had been funding the opposition groups in Syria for years. Then, shortly after the war began CIA operation Timber Sycamore began supplying the opposition faction with weapons, supplies and training. Also, official US intervention happened before official Russian intervention. While I won't deny the Russian or ISIS involvement, the US was also always involved.
- dotancohen 4y ago
  Thank you for mentioning that. I do have some reading to do this evening.

watwut 4y ago

This one was not caused by west in any way. West joined way later. Oh, and you conveniently ignore Russian factor too - they were the ones targeting hospitals and ranking up civilian causalities as a strategy.

yonaguska 4y ago
When you look at the role that the West played in the Arab spring movement in general, specifically Intel agencies destabilizing Libya, and supporting extremist movements, the rapid pull out of Iraq, when it was known that extremist factions were waiting for this to happen...the West had it's hands all over this. The West was involved from the beginning, just not in obvious ways.
- watwut 4y ago
  Every time there are protests against a dictator, it is west doing. There is no way those dictatorships would had people protesting them when opportunity arises. It is all CIA opsec, whether Arab spring or Ukraine or anything. /s Nah.
  - yonaguska 4y ago
    Concerning Ukraine, the CIA literally funded the Banderas movement for years, even going so far as to protect people from the Nuremberg trials to ensure that Ukraine would have a resistance movement under the USSR. This is not classified information anymore. And until recently, you could listen to a phone call with Secretary Nuland as she discussed who should be placed into power in the anti-Lukaschenko movement. She also discusses how the EuroMaidan protests would need at least 100 dead in order to justify American support and intervention. Gaddafi, we enforced no fly zones and called on NATO to help the the Muslim brotherhood oust Gaddafi. In WikiLeaks cables, Clinton bragged about taking out Gaddafi, as well as in public, and Blumenthal even discussed investing in an arms company in order to profit from the conflict. In Syria, we watched no fly zones being established that protected ISIS, while ISIS was condemned publicly by the same politicians that protected them. Then the CIA sent arms to "moderate rebels" that were simply rebranded IS groups. Some of those groups, after receiving arms, went public with their allegiance to IS. Don't forget Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, another group that the US had a heavy hand in creating in order to creating. And we've done stuff like this on every single continent. Patrice Lumumba got too friendly with the Russians and communism. Haven't even gotten to South America. And I'm someone that would consider themselves very anti communist, but I can acknowledge that the US has been involved in some incredibly destructive behind the scenes foreign policy. This stuff isn't really disputed.