3 ms·

>with the beautiful people clique getting the highest ratings, I don't think you're wrong, but it's also a cynical interpretation. Another way to look at it i

>with the beautiful people clique getting the highest ratings, I don't think you're wrong, but it's also a cynical interpretation. Another way to look at it is that people who other people want to work with get high ratings. Is that bad? From a company culture standpoint, I'm not sure it is. In fact, I often see posts and comments on these very boards about the toxicity surrounding "really good programmers" who are jerks, but tolerated. That's not a great outcome, either. Where is the middle ground?

kdomanski 4y ago
> Another way to look at it is that people who other people want to work with get high ratings. Is that bad? From a company culture standpoint, I'm not sure it is. Depending on who is it that people do and don’t want to work with, we might call it “discrimination against a protected class”, which is at least bad enough that it’s illegal in many countries.
kstenerud 4y ago
It comes from life experience. I once made the mistake of contradicting a powerful person at my company at a party, and it embarrassed him. Shortly thereafter, people who had been friendly with me became noticeably cooler. My peer reviews took a nosedive and I was let go in the next round of layoffs. That's how things work in the real world, but this kind of review system makes it MUCH easier to sabotage others when you have the clout to do so, because there's no manager to protect them from the bullshit anymore. It's basically inviting these sorts of shenanigans rather than forcing saboteurs to do a lot of extra work to get people fired.
- itsoktocry 4y ago
  >I once made the mistake of contradicting a powerful person at my company at a party, and it embarrassed him. Shortly thereafter, people who had been friendly with me became noticeably cooler. My peer reviews took a nosedive and I was let go in the next round of layoffs. Obviously I have no idea the circumstances of your experiences here, so don't take this personally, this is hypothetical: but what if "you" actually were the asshole here? Wouldn't you be saying the same thing? Maybe this incident made people realize that "you" weren't a good person to work with? If you were on the other side, isn't that a good outcome?
  - lupire 4y ago
    Maybe, but somehow I doubt that the company would lay off an exec for insulting a peon at a party.
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    You don't "suddenly" notice that someone is an asshole. You just know it, and avoid them as much as you can. If someone is friendly with you for months, years, and then suddenly becomes cold, that's not because you're an asshole - it's because of some incident that either they witnessed, or was gossiped to them. When everyone around you reacts this way almost at once, you know for sure that it was gossip. If I'd spoken to this person along the lines of "OMG WTF are you saying dude that's so stupid" rather than "Actually I think person X had a good point about trying this approach - it would solve X and Y and Z all at once", I'd be inclined to believe that it was just me. Person X was actually the CTO, so I thought it was a safe topic, but I'd misunderstood the shadow power structure. It turned out the guy I was speaking to had more power (at least over me anyway), and was opposed to the CTO.
- lupire 4y ago
  How would the dot system make it easier to hurt you? The dot system would probably *help" here, because a sudden drop in ratings right after the incident would merit an investigation.
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    In theory they could, yes, but in practice people would rather just get rid of trouble rather than investigate it because it's far less work.
  - mv4 4y ago
    Almost any feedback system can also be used a weapon.
manuelabeledo 4y ago
> Another way to look at it is that people who other people want to work with get high ratings. Is that bad? It is if there is no objectivity to it. It wouldn't be the first time I get a bad review because I do things slightly different.
julianeon 4y ago
I mean, by the same logic, you could also say it's also a cynical interpretation of the high school clique... Another way to look at [high school cliques] is that people who other people want to be around get high [social] ratings. Is that bad? From experience: yes, it is. The fact that this criticism can be reframed in a way that hides the problem, that something we've all experienced becomes invisible, shows that it is a problem. There is a kind of problem with group social dynamics that can't be easily ironed out; the real experience of existing high school cliques is proof of this. Unsurprisingly, this same problem that comes up in high schools appears in workplaces also.
junon 4y ago
This sounds like you've never had to go through performance reviews.
Siira 4y ago
Externalities, Nash equilibria, and fairness are good keywords to start understanding why the “natural state of affairs” can suck for the majority of people.

kdomanski 4y ago

> Another way to look at it is that people who other people want to work with get high ratings. Is that bad? From a company culture standpoint, I'm not sure it is. Depending on who is it that people do and don’t want to work with, we might call it “discrimination against a protected class”, which is at least bad enough that it’s illegal in many countries.

kstenerud 4y ago

It comes from life experience. I once made the mistake of contradicting a powerful person at my company at a party, and it embarrassed him. Shortly thereafter, people who had been friendly with me became noticeably cooler. My peer reviews took a nosedive and I was let go in the next round of layoffs. That's how things work in the real world, but this kind of review system makes it MUCH easier to sabotage others when you have the clout to do so, because there's no manager to protect them from the bullshit anymore. It's basically inviting these sorts of shenanigans rather than forcing saboteurs to do a lot of extra work to get people fired.

itsoktocry 4y ago
>I once made the mistake of contradicting a powerful person at my company at a party, and it embarrassed him. Shortly thereafter, people who had been friendly with me became noticeably cooler. My peer reviews took a nosedive and I was let go in the next round of layoffs. Obviously I have no idea the circumstances of your experiences here, so don't take this personally, this is hypothetical: but what if "you" actually were the asshole here? Wouldn't you be saying the same thing? Maybe this incident made people realize that "you" weren't a good person to work with? If you were on the other side, isn't that a good outcome?
- lupire 4y ago
  Maybe, but somehow I doubt that the company would lay off an exec for insulting a peon at a party.
- kstenerud 4y ago
  You don't "suddenly" notice that someone is an asshole. You just know it, and avoid them as much as you can. If someone is friendly with you for months, years, and then suddenly becomes cold, that's not because you're an asshole - it's because of some incident that either they witnessed, or was gossiped to them. When everyone around you reacts this way almost at once, you know for sure that it was gossip. If I'd spoken to this person along the lines of "OMG WTF are you saying dude that's so stupid" rather than "Actually I think person X had a good point about trying this approach - it would solve X and Y and Z all at once", I'd be inclined to believe that it was just me. Person X was actually the CTO, so I thought it was a safe topic, but I'd misunderstood the shadow power structure. It turned out the guy I was speaking to had more power (at least over me anyway), and was opposed to the CTO.
lupire 4y ago
How would the dot system make it easier to hurt you? The dot system would probably *help" here, because a sudden drop in ratings right after the incident would merit an investigation.
- kstenerud 4y ago
  In theory they could, yes, but in practice people would rather just get rid of trouble rather than investigate it because it's far less work.
- mv4 4y ago
  Almost any feedback system can also be used a weapon.

manuelabeledo 4y ago

> Another way to look at it is that people who other people want to work with get high ratings. Is that bad? It is if there is no objectivity to it. It wouldn't be the first time I get a bad review because I do things slightly different.

julianeon 4y ago

I mean, by the same logic, you could also say it's also a cynical interpretation of the high school clique... Another way to look at [high school cliques] is that people who other people want to be around get high [social] ratings. Is that bad? From experience: yes, it is. The fact that this criticism can be reframed in a way that hides the problem, that something we've all experienced becomes invisible, shows that it is a problem. There is a kind of problem with group social dynamics that can't be easily ironed out; the real experience of existing high school cliques is proof of this. Unsurprisingly, this same problem that comes up in high schools appears in workplaces also.

junon 4y ago

This sounds like you've never had to go through performance reviews.

Siira 4y ago

Externalities, Nash equilibria, and fairness are good keywords to start understanding why the “natural state of affairs” can suck for the majority of people.