7 ms·

I'd love in SIP was more normalized for most people, so you just bought a data sim (and mostly used wifi) and didn't have to port a number around. I guess wirel

by rr888 4y ago

I'd love in SIP was more normalized for most people, so you just bought a data sim (and mostly used wifi) and didn't have to port a number around. I guess wireless market is so competitive the carriers really want to avoid this.

phowat 4y ago
Absolutely, I remember owning a nokia n85 12 years ago which had native SIP support. I wish ios and android had this.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Early Android had it - wouldn't be surprised if it still exists now but has been hidden from the UI. For VoWiFI/VoLTE it's already using SIP anyway so there definitely is a SIP client. The only reason you're not given access to it is because carriers are doing their best to protect their obsolete business model, and despite the appearances, Apple is fully complicit as well.
  - wolrah 4y ago
    > Early Android had it - wouldn't be surprised if it still exists now but has been hidden from the UI. It's buried in the settings for the Phone app (the dialer) and AFAIK is often removed from OEM ROMs because of course it is. As a VoIP engineer, it's a terrible soft client. It works, barely, and has basically no features beyond bare minimum calling. I've tried to use it repeatedly over the years but always ended up on commercial softphones like Bria or GS Wave.
    - kevincox 4y ago
      SIP was actually removed from the ASOP dialer very recently. It was removed in Android 12 (released late 2021). The support was never great (it would reset to defaulting to SIM calls every reboot) but it worked and was reliable.
      - bestham 4y ago
        SIP is the basis for VoLTE and VoNR. So in some sense iOS and Android still support SIP.
- supertrope 4y ago
  Although Google stopped supporting the OS integrated SIP client and eventually removed it, you can install Acrobits Groundwire or Bria. Those support PUSH notification for incoming calls. Push is better than missing calls because the app got killed, or forcing the app to run 24/7 and severely shortening battery runtime. But the call quality will never be as good as the native phone app as that gets QCI prioritization.
- TMSZ 4y ago
  I remember these phones had some interoperability issue: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/mobiledevices/forum/all/nokia-e72-sip/1ae79fc1-7e0e-4fe5-87c5-aa9d8ae9c7a7 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/mobiledevices/forum/all/... (technically all according to specification, but often not working for incoming calls). At the time Symbian was supported by pjsip though.
supertrope 4y ago
In the US market average customers can barely handle SIMs. Letting customers handle their SIP credentials would amplify number hijacking and customer side telecom fraud.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  I don't see any cases where customers are misusing SIMs that would expose them to fraud at a large-scale. What I see instead is customer service being staffed by monkeys that are too stupid to realize they're being social-engineered, don't care or are outright complicit in the fraud.
  - ggping 4y ago
    Having worked in customer service decades ago, I wouldn't call them stupid monkeys. Designing your 2F authentication around SIM-based telcom is perhaps more appropriate to obtain the title of "stupid".
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      I'm sure there are good ones in the mix but that doesn't match my experience with any mainstream consumer-grade carrier or ISP. It doesn't have to be that way but obviously until carriers are held accountable and/or their oligopoly is broken they have no incentive to improve things. While it's true that SMS 2FA is flawed, that still isn't an excuse for letting customers' phone numbers being taken over by very unsophisticated attacks, sometimes even if notes are added to the account (or a PIN) that explicitly warn against such attacks. Also, I'm not sure how much of "decades ago" is hyperbole but back in the day ISP/telco support was a great career path and would allow you to learn and move up the ranks towards a more technical position. Nowadays "support" in any customer-grade ISP/telco is a dead-end position that's there to be exploited as much as possible (in fact it's often outsourced to a boiler room abroad, probably right next to the tech-support scammers) and replaced by a new sucker as soon as you burn out. Obviously this kind of treatment doesn't attract the right talent nor inspire goodwill in said talent.
  - supertrope 4y ago
jaywalk 4y ago
It's been well over a decade since I've ported my number, but even way back then it was a fairly simple and straightforward process. I doubt it's gotten more complex since then.
- julianlam 4y ago
  At least in Canada, the process is simple but still not instantaneous, unless you are porting between the big incumbent carriers (Rogers, Bell, Telus, and their subsidiaries—often referred to as Robelus). I ported my number out to VoIP.ms, and it included a four day waiting period... for no particular reason except to probably allow for some human to check a box.

by rr888 4y ago

phowat 4y ago

Absolutely, I remember owning a nokia n85 12 years ago which had native SIP support. I wish ios and android had this.

Nextgrid 4y ago
Early Android had it - wouldn't be surprised if it still exists now but has been hidden from the UI. For VoWiFI/VoLTE it's already using SIP anyway so there definitely is a SIP client. The only reason you're not given access to it is because carriers are doing their best to protect their obsolete business model, and despite the appearances, Apple is fully complicit as well.
- wolrah 4y ago
  > Early Android had it - wouldn't be surprised if it still exists now but has been hidden from the UI. It's buried in the settings for the Phone app (the dialer) and AFAIK is often removed from OEM ROMs because of course it is. As a VoIP engineer, it's a terrible soft client. It works, barely, and has basically no features beyond bare minimum calling. I've tried to use it repeatedly over the years but always ended up on commercial softphones like Bria or GS Wave.
  - kevincox 4y ago
    SIP was actually removed from the ASOP dialer very recently. It was removed in Android 12 (released late 2021). The support was never great (it would reset to defaulting to SIM calls every reboot) but it worked and was reliable.
    - bestham 4y ago
      SIP is the basis for VoLTE and VoNR. So in some sense iOS and Android still support SIP.
supertrope 4y ago
Although Google stopped supporting the OS integrated SIP client and eventually removed it, you can install Acrobits Groundwire or Bria. Those support PUSH notification for incoming calls. Push is better than missing calls because the app got killed, or forcing the app to run 24/7 and severely shortening battery runtime. But the call quality will never be as good as the native phone app as that gets QCI prioritization.
TMSZ 4y ago
I remember these phones had some interoperability issue: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/mobiledevices/forum/all/nokia-e72-sip/1ae79fc1-7e0e-4fe5-87c5-aa9d8ae9c7a7 https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/mobiledevices/forum/all/... (technically all according to specification, but often not working for incoming calls). At the time Symbian was supported by pjsip though.

supertrope 4y ago

In the US market average customers can barely handle SIMs. Letting customers handle their SIP credentials would amplify number hijacking and customer side telecom fraud.

Nextgrid 4y ago
I don't see any cases where customers are misusing SIMs that would expose them to fraud at a large-scale. What I see instead is customer service being staffed by monkeys that are too stupid to realize they're being social-engineered, don't care or are outright complicit in the fraud.
- ggping 4y ago
  Having worked in customer service decades ago, I wouldn't call them stupid monkeys. Designing your 2F authentication around SIM-based telcom is perhaps more appropriate to obtain the title of "stupid".
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    I'm sure there are good ones in the mix but that doesn't match my experience with any mainstream consumer-grade carrier or ISP. It doesn't have to be that way but obviously until carriers are held accountable and/or their oligopoly is broken they have no incentive to improve things. While it's true that SMS 2FA is flawed, that still isn't an excuse for letting customers' phone numbers being taken over by very unsophisticated attacks, sometimes even if notes are added to the account (or a PIN) that explicitly warn against such attacks. Also, I'm not sure how much of "decades ago" is hyperbole but back in the day ISP/telco support was a great career path and would allow you to learn and move up the ranks towards a more technical position. Nowadays "support" in any customer-grade ISP/telco is a dead-end position that's there to be exploited as much as possible (in fact it's often outsourced to a boiler room abroad, probably right next to the tech-support scammers) and replaced by a new sucker as soon as you burn out. Obviously this kind of treatment doesn't attract the right talent nor inspire goodwill in said talent.
- supertrope 4y ago

jaywalk 4y ago

It's been well over a decade since I've ported my number, but even way back then it was a fairly simple and straightforward process. I doubt it's gotten more complex since then.

julianlam 4y ago
At least in Canada, the process is simple but still not instantaneous, unless you are porting between the big incumbent carriers (Rogers, Bell, Telus, and their subsidiaries—often referred to as Robelus). I ported my number out to VoIP.ms, and it included a four day waiting period... for no particular reason except to probably allow for some human to check a box.