4 ms·

As far as groups that have kept a continuous identity and language since time immemorial, there are also the Basques, located around the Bay of Biscay. And I be

As far as groups that have kept a continuous identity and language since time immemorial, there are also the Basques, located around the Bay of Biscay. And I believe there are other remote pockets of people that have distinctive genetics in other parts of Europe, but haven't retained a pre-Indo-European language.

vintermann 4y ago
The Sámi haven't kept their language since time immemorial, if you base their identity on their supposed genetic uniqueness. Sámi is a finno-ugric language, and that language family is thought to have its origin in the Ural mountains, far, far east of Sápmi. Now, there are some who argue that the Sámi are in part genetic descendants of Norway's first post ice age Neolithic settlers. There are some arguments from the supposed genetic peculiarity of the Sámi towards this end. But if so, they didn't keep their language and culture, that has origins in the east. I think those genetic arguments are fishy anyway, it's just a little too convenient for (Sámi) nationalistic narratives. To be clear, I don't think the possibility that (proto-)samic speakers arrived in Scaninavia at more or less the same time as indo-european speakers, is in ANY way an argument against recognition and protection of Sámi language and culture. That should not in any way rest on some Neolithic blood quantum thing. In Norway, recognition is based on language, you can register in the Sámi rolls if you speak Sámi at home or your parents or grandparents (possibly great-grandparents too now) used to. That's the right way in my opinion, not genetics.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  I think language should not be a requirement either. It's complicated, one can identify with a group despite having lost the language some generation(s) ago. Agree 100% on the other points.
  - vintermann 4y ago
    The issue is that there are only about 30000 Sámi. That means that if even 0.5% of non-Sámi Norwegians decided to suddenly identify with them, we'd swamp them. With whatever caricatured, romanticized, self-serving idea of Sámishness we came up with. So I think the three (or is it two?) generations rule is sensible. Yes, you don't have to speak Sámi to be Sámi, but if not even one of your great-grandparents could speak Sámi, then your connection to the culture is tenuous enough that you should make some effort yourself (I.e. learn the language yourself) before you start getting into internal Sámi politics.

vintermann 4y ago

The Sámi haven't kept their language since time immemorial, if you base their identity on their supposed genetic uniqueness. Sámi is a finno-ugric language, and that language family is thought to have its origin in the Ural mountains, far, far east of Sápmi. Now, there are some who argue that the Sámi are in part genetic descendants of Norway's first post ice age Neolithic settlers. There are some arguments from the supposed genetic peculiarity of the Sámi towards this end. But if so, they didn't keep their language and culture, that has origins in the east. I think those genetic arguments are fishy anyway, it's just a little too convenient for (Sámi) nationalistic narratives. To be clear, I don't think the possibility that (proto-)samic speakers arrived in Scaninavia at more or less the same time as indo-european speakers, is in ANY way an argument against recognition and protection of Sámi language and culture. That should not in any way rest on some Neolithic blood quantum thing. In Norway, recognition is based on language, you can register in the Sámi rolls if you speak Sámi at home or your parents or grandparents (possibly great-grandparents too now) used to. That's the right way in my opinion, not genetics.

actionfromafar 4y ago
I think language should not be a requirement either. It's complicated, one can identify with a group despite having lost the language some generation(s) ago. Agree 100% on the other points.
- vintermann 4y ago
  The issue is that there are only about 30000 Sámi. That means that if even 0.5% of non-Sámi Norwegians decided to suddenly identify with them, we'd swamp them. With whatever caricatured, romanticized, self-serving idea of Sámishness we came up with. So I think the three (or is it two?) generations rule is sensible. Yes, you don't have to speak Sámi to be Sámi, but if not even one of your great-grandparents could speak Sámi, then your connection to the culture is tenuous enough that you should make some effort yourself (I.e. learn the language yourself) before you start getting into internal Sámi politics.