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It is a shame that open source is much more of a subject in the world of programmers than in the world of user interface designers. A face lift for claws would

It is a shame that open source is much more of a subject in the world of programmers than in the world of user interface designers. A face lift for claws would be worth 1000 new features. It is a fact that people rate software by how it looks, and anyone who is not a geek will pass up Claws - and the geeks will install it alongside whatever they regularly use. I wonder if there is a way to get more open source UI work?

trumpablehump 4y ago
Is that a problem though? Claws is great and I hope it will not get a dumbed down Gnome interface by someone on a Mac who does not even use the software they redesign, with buttons in unexpected places, unintuitive icons for the most basic functionality and its options limited to a maximum of 25 because of some metric that says more options are hard to understand. Hyberbole, yes, but the interface of Claws is pretty much what makes me use it. It's blazingly fast and efficient. What would a re-design improve?
- mrweasel 4y ago
  > What would a re-design improve That is exactly the question people often forget to answer. We see this with both software and webdesign. Stuff gets a facelife, because it doesn't follow the latest trends. During the process features or design decisions made previously is often ignore or forgot, because they don't fix the new "vision". In the case of Claws Mail an argument could be made for upgrading to a never version of GTK and get a facelift in the process. That could also hurt the users, if the UI move around to much, or break existing work-flows. There is a lot of value in a stable UI. You can get caught in old or even deprecated libraries and UI interaction, that's a risk. There is however also value in being conservative and consistent. If you take an application(/web-application) like Chrome or Gmail, and you haven't used that in a few years, then you'll get overwhelmed. Something like Claws Mail or TextMate doesn't have that issue, you learned the concepts years ago, and they are just a valid now as they where then.
  - ajot 4y ago
    > In the case of Claws Mail an argument could be made for upgrading to a never version of GTK and get a facelift in the process. That could also hurt the users, if the UI move around to much, or break existing work-flows. Since last year, they have a release branch (4.x.x) built with GTK+3. I know GTK 4 is on the way, but I think nobody is using it nowadays.
    - ho_schi 4y ago
      Gtk4 is just new. Adaption will require years.
b112 4y ago
What you're saying may be true for some, but I personally don't care. The UI is functional, simple, easy to use. What I do care about, what I fear, are UI changes which remove options, obscure clarity, make workflow difficult, which seems to be 99% of UI "improvements" these days. I want descriptive text under or as buttons. I want to see, and be able to easily grab and use a scrollbar. I want things like this, and more. At the very least, if not be default, by config options. But again, the ongoing trend seems to be not only to design for looks, not usage, but also prevent user change. I am so happy with claws, so please, I say this politely, go away and take your UI thoughts with you. Please, I beg you.
- na85 4y ago
  The shitshow that happened to GNOME isn't the only way that UI improvements can go. Like it or not, irrespective of whether or not you personally care about UI/UX, lots of people do and bad UI/UX has turned away thousands of people from Linux and friends.
- lagrange77 4y ago
  He's talking about good UI and you're talking about bad UI.
  - heyoni 4y ago
    It’s almost impossible to make good UI without dumbing things way down. Either that or I’m lacking imagination.
    - Maelcum 4y ago
      Just look at the Date format field in the Preferences screenshot. It's really hard to not find a more user-friendly way to do it, IMHO. UI and UX matters more than developers care to admit.
      - cuu508 4y ago
        Ok, I'll bite- What would be a functionally equivalent, but more user-friendly way to do it? (And preferably not 10x harder to implement)
al_borland 4y ago
I agree that the UI often holds back open source. When looking at the features of Claws, nothing is jumping out at me as both unique and something a lot of people would really like/need. Is there something specific you're seeing that you think people are missing out on due to the interface scaring them away?
- peppermint_tea 4y ago
  A working, open source, fully featured email client... not much of them left after mozilla ditched thunderbird.
  - gglitch 4y ago
    I don't have an opinion on the discussion above, but want to point out that Thunderbird is still alive and well. I use it every day, and donate to it.
    - classichasclass 4y ago
      Likewise. Another T-Bird user here.
nerdponx 4y ago
On the other hand, I am what you might call a "geek", and I find that Claws is actually lacking important features that I need, such as support for multiple "sending identities". I couldn't care less about the UI being pretty, but I do care about it being usable, and I care about it having the features that I want.
- leni536 4y ago
  I use claws with multiple sending identities.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    How? I spent a long time trying to figure it out and searching docs.
    - leni536 4y ago
      Add a new account, set protocol to "None (SMTP only)", set it up.
    - mrspuratic 4y ago
      I just use multiple "accounts", they don't necessarily need unique SMTP/IMAP settings. With more than one you get to pick a From: via drop-down in Compose, and you can also set (per-folder) the default account and/or CC:/Reply-to:
- squarefoot 4y ago
  If by multiple identities you mean accounts, I currently use it with 4 accounts, each one with rules to receive mail to its own folder, and in the past have easily exceeded a dozen accounts. Also, backup and restore are super easy: just copy the ~/.claws_mail and ~/Mail directories and you're done: messages, attachments, accounts, contacts, everything.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
You can also contribute to Claws Mail themes. [0] A set of icons/font would probably achieve the facelift you would like to see. [0] https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php
- rollcat 4y ago
  That's not the problem. That's like changing the color on the walls, in a house where the light switches were placed too high for small children to reach.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    Sounds like a dream house!
squarefoot 4y ago
> A face lift for claws would be worth 1000 new features. But it would probably tax the hardware as such. Claws Mail, which is my #1 choice since decades, is probably the best that can be achieved without surrendering it to a more "modern" development style that could make it at least an order of magnitude bigger and slower. It's simply amazing that I can keep all my emails since 1997 (tens of thousands posts, with attachments, the older ones easily converted from Eudora, my then client under Windows) online so I can search everything I have posted or received instantly on indexed fields or in like 30 seconds on any other field, including spam. Claws Mail could benefit however from being ported to a cleaner and better thought interface such as Qt (sorry for GTK lovers but to me latest GTK versions are an abomination), and possibly incorporating a conversation mode, but I wouldn't sacrifice anything of what makes it so great to add those features.
II2II 4y ago
> It is a shame that open source is much more of a subject in the world of programmers than in the world of user interface designers. Is that actually a disadvantage? Different people have different tastes. This is true for both the aesthetic and utilitarian aspects of user interface design. Our software should look and behave differently to reflect that reality, and the metric of success ought to be maintaining enough interest in the software to sustain its development. (In the case of open source software, that is attracting enough contributors. In the case of commercial software, that is attracting enough customers.) Indeed, attracting more people may be more of a detriment than anything else. It may alienate the most dedicated contributors or it may attract users who do not contribute. (How many times have we seen open source developers gripe about their product garnering users who place excessive demands upon them?)
throwaway787544 4y ago
I really liked the Claws UI. I stopped using it because I wanted something more portable with more features (Thunderbird), and the whole UI freeze single thread thing was a bit painful. I am personally only interested in technogy that makes me productive, not tech that looks good. I want to be on the computer for as little time as possible.
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
This is GTK. Which (still) can be themed, though that is harder today, than in the times of GTK2. But maybe these https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php suffice? Those change just some icons. I used it in the past, and had no problems with it(after theming). It was much more light than thunderbird, at the times, so it could run in the background without dragging other(desktop) stuff down.

trumpablehump 4y ago

Is that a problem though? Claws is great and I hope it will not get a dumbed down Gnome interface by someone on a Mac who does not even use the software they redesign, with buttons in unexpected places, unintuitive icons for the most basic functionality and its options limited to a maximum of 25 because of some metric that says more options are hard to understand. Hyberbole, yes, but the interface of Claws is pretty much what makes me use it. It's blazingly fast and efficient. What would a re-design improve?

mrweasel 4y ago
> What would a re-design improve That is exactly the question people often forget to answer. We see this with both software and webdesign. Stuff gets a facelife, because it doesn't follow the latest trends. During the process features or design decisions made previously is often ignore or forgot, because they don't fix the new "vision". In the case of Claws Mail an argument could be made for upgrading to a never version of GTK and get a facelift in the process. That could also hurt the users, if the UI move around to much, or break existing work-flows. There is a lot of value in a stable UI. You can get caught in old or even deprecated libraries and UI interaction, that's a risk. There is however also value in being conservative and consistent. If you take an application(/web-application) like Chrome or Gmail, and you haven't used that in a few years, then you'll get overwhelmed. Something like Claws Mail or TextMate doesn't have that issue, you learned the concepts years ago, and they are just a valid now as they where then.
- ajot 4y ago
  > In the case of Claws Mail an argument could be made for upgrading to a never version of GTK and get a facelift in the process. That could also hurt the users, if the UI move around to much, or break existing work-flows. Since last year, they have a release branch (4.x.x) built with GTK+3. I know GTK 4 is on the way, but I think nobody is using it nowadays.
  - ho_schi 4y ago
    Gtk4 is just new. Adaption will require years.

b112 4y ago

What you're saying may be true for some, but I personally don't care. The UI is functional, simple, easy to use. What I do care about, what I fear, are UI changes which remove options, obscure clarity, make workflow difficult, which seems to be 99% of UI "improvements" these days. I want descriptive text under or as buttons. I want to see, and be able to easily grab and use a scrollbar. I want things like this, and more. At the very least, if not be default, by config options. But again, the ongoing trend seems to be not only to design for looks, not usage, but also prevent user change. I am so happy with claws, so please, I say this politely, go away and take your UI thoughts with you. Please, I beg you.

na85 4y ago
The shitshow that happened to GNOME isn't the only way that UI improvements can go. Like it or not, irrespective of whether or not you personally care about UI/UX, lots of people do and bad UI/UX has turned away thousands of people from Linux and friends.
lagrange77 4y ago
He's talking about good UI and you're talking about bad UI.
- heyoni 4y ago
  It’s almost impossible to make good UI without dumbing things way down. Either that or I’m lacking imagination.
  - Maelcum 4y ago
    Just look at the Date format field in the Preferences screenshot. It's really hard to not find a more user-friendly way to do it, IMHO. UI and UX matters more than developers care to admit.
    - cuu508 4y ago
      Ok, I'll bite- What would be a functionally equivalent, but more user-friendly way to do it? (And preferably not 10x harder to implement)

al_borland 4y ago

I agree that the UI often holds back open source. When looking at the features of Claws, nothing is jumping out at me as both unique and something a lot of people would really like/need. Is there something specific you're seeing that you think people are missing out on due to the interface scaring them away?

peppermint_tea 4y ago
A working, open source, fully featured email client... not much of them left after mozilla ditched thunderbird.
- gglitch 4y ago
  I don't have an opinion on the discussion above, but want to point out that Thunderbird is still alive and well. I use it every day, and donate to it.
  - classichasclass 4y ago
    Likewise. Another T-Bird user here.

nerdponx 4y ago

On the other hand, I am what you might call a "geek", and I find that Claws is actually lacking important features that I need, such as support for multiple "sending identities". I couldn't care less about the UI being pretty, but I do care about it being usable, and I care about it having the features that I want.

leni536 4y ago
I use claws with multiple sending identities.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  How? I spent a long time trying to figure it out and searching docs.
  - leni536 4y ago
    Add a new account, set protocol to "None (SMTP only)", set it up.
  - mrspuratic 4y ago
    I just use multiple "accounts", they don't necessarily need unique SMTP/IMAP settings. With more than one you get to pick a From: via drop-down in Compose, and you can also set (per-folder) the default account and/or CC:/Reply-to:
squarefoot 4y ago
If by multiple identities you mean accounts, I currently use it with 4 accounts, each one with rules to receive mail to its own folder, and in the past have easily exceeded a dozen accounts. Also, backup and restore are super easy: just copy the ~/.claws_mail and ~/Mail directories and you're done: messages, attachments, accounts, contacts, everything.

DoingIsLearning 4y ago

You can also contribute to Claws Mail themes. [0] A set of icons/font would probably achieve the facelift you would like to see. [0] https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php

rollcat 4y ago
That's not the problem. That's like changing the color on the walls, in a house where the light switches were placed too high for small children to reach.
- bombcar 4y ago
  Sounds like a dream house!

squarefoot 4y ago

> A face lift for claws would be worth 1000 new features. But it would probably tax the hardware as such. Claws Mail, which is my #1 choice since decades, is probably the best that can be achieved without surrendering it to a more "modern" development style that could make it at least an order of magnitude bigger and slower. It's simply amazing that I can keep all my emails since 1997 (tens of thousands posts, with attachments, the older ones easily converted from Eudora, my then client under Windows) online so I can search everything I have posted or received instantly on indexed fields or in like 30 seconds on any other field, including spam. Claws Mail could benefit however from being ported to a cleaner and better thought interface such as Qt (sorry for GTK lovers but to me latest GTK versions are an abomination), and possibly incorporating a conversation mode, but I wouldn't sacrifice anything of what makes it so great to add those features.

II2II 4y ago

> It is a shame that open source is much more of a subject in the world of programmers than in the world of user interface designers. Is that actually a disadvantage? Different people have different tastes. This is true for both the aesthetic and utilitarian aspects of user interface design. Our software should look and behave differently to reflect that reality, and the metric of success ought to be maintaining enough interest in the software to sustain its development. (In the case of open source software, that is attracting enough contributors. In the case of commercial software, that is attracting enough customers.) Indeed, attracting more people may be more of a detriment than anything else. It may alienate the most dedicated contributors or it may attract users who do not contribute. (How many times have we seen open source developers gripe about their product garnering users who place excessive demands upon them?)

throwaway787544 4y ago

I really liked the Claws UI. I stopped using it because I wanted something more portable with more features (Thunderbird), and the whole UI freeze single thread thing was a bit painful. I am personally only interested in technogy that makes me productive, not tech that looks good. I want to be on the computer for as little time as possible.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

This is GTK. Which (still) can be themed, though that is harder today, than in the times of GTK2. But maybe these https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php https://www.claws-mail.org/themes.php suffice? Those change just some icons. I used it in the past, and had no problems with it(after theming). It was much more light than thunderbird, at the times, so it could run in the background without dragging other(desktop) stuff down.