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Turkey has a point though, relevant treaty says those islands should be demilitarised. If Greece is not happy about that, it should renegotiate and sign new tre

Turkey has a point though, relevant treaty says those islands should be demilitarised. If Greece is not happy about that, it should renegotiate and sign new treaty. Dismissing someone greavances as "warmongering" will just escalate war.

planetis 4y ago
There is no negotiating to be done over one's sovereign rights. Once again going too far over any logic can explain but let me be clear about it. Every country has the right to defend its territory, that's article 2 paragraph 4 of the UN charter. The Paris Peace treaty does not concern Turkey, as Turkey did not sign it. Turkey remained neutral in WW2, declaring war against Germany in late February 1945, hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism. Turkey's president has no legal basis to ask for the demilitarization of Greek islands. It is the Greek islands' strong army presence that deter him from any thought of military operations against them. Lastly every island over 3 nautical miles distance over the coast of Anatolia, according to the treaty of Lausanne belongs to Greece.
- throw93232 4y ago
  ..and Turky will start again shipping refugees from its "sovereign" territory. This clawn show is very expensive for both sides. Make a deal!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - planetis 4y ago
    In my opinion, it will stay as such, no side can afford the loss of income from tourism. It is an attempt to turn a worsening situation into an opportunity. Erdogan a defunct leader, might face jail time in case he looses the elections, thus he will do everything he can to cling to power. The unknown is how desperate he is and how far he's willing to go.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    It's shameful that refugees are treated like this by both parties. Soon climate crisis will produce anywhere between 100 million to a billion refugees. Will countries that polluted most take the most?
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > "hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism." Imagine you are in charge of a struggling nation, somewhat behind technologically, close to Germany and Italy, during the most destructive war in history. In that situation, would you be eager to declare war on the axis powers, and condemn your people to suffering? Even US wasn't keen to get involved untill war came to them - and they had technological parity and protection of the oceans.. You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers. They had fresh memory of atrocities commited by colonial powers which, to them, were not that different from Nazis's ones. To them, Europe only cared about europe - when empire of Japan was doing genocide in China, noone cared. The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners.
  - watwut 4y ago
    China itself is colonial power - to these days. > You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers. China land was literally occupied by Japanies who fought on the German side and joined the allies. China fought in that war and lost quite a lot of people in that war. Ad Turkey: It is one thing to stay aside of genocide far away, it is another thing to demand credit for fighting genocide when it is clear who won. > The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners. Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      > Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression. This is pot / kettle black. It's not like none of this happens over here. If you open a typical British or US history textbook, it omits or glances over most of the atrocious and dark parts of it's history. As a result most population is unaware of their scale, or sometimes unaware of them at all. That's how you get false narratives in politics, usually nationalist ones. In my experience a typical brexit supporting person has never heard of half the stuff that was going on in the colonies.
jomjomv 4y ago
Afaik "militarization" here refers to permanent Naval bases and such in which case, no, Turkey doesn't have a point at all.
- stavros 4y ago
  This is the Lausanne treaty (which Turkey is a signatory of, and which stipulates that Greece shouldn't build naval bases on islands, which it hasn't). There's also a treaty between Greece and Italy, which stipulates that there will be no army on some islands, the violation of which Italy apparently has no problem with. I don't understand by what right an unrelated third party complains about it, it seems to me about as relevant as Greece complaining about a treaty between Colombia and Brazil.
planetis 4y ago
Turkish EFES 2022 military exercise concluded just a day ago and it's scenario was landing on an enemy island. The pesident demanded that Greece demilitarize its islands in the eastern Aegean, otherwise face disaster. If that's not a clear military threat then what could it be? Source: https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1186488/erdogan-issues-threat-of-military-force/ https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1186488/erdogan-issues-thr...
- mrunseen 4y ago
  Aegean sea has seen a lot of military exercises with both Greece and Turkey, I remember the Medusa-10 exercise with Greece, France, Egypt and UAE (and yeah, these are the sides which clash against Turkey-backed official government in Libya) NATO Allied Land Command (in Izmir) tweeted the exercise with hashtags: #WEARENATO and #StrongerTogether. I would normally say such a weird timeline we live in but it has been like this for decades.
  - jomjomv 4y ago
    Yes, military exercises happen all the time but the scenarios of the exercises are not always the same and they are not irrelevant.
stavros 4y ago
You mean the treaty between Greece and Italy? I don't understand why Turkey has a right to complain about a treaty between two unrelated countries. If Italy wants to complain about Greece violating the treaty, by all means, but why should Turkey, as a non-signatory?

planetis 4y ago

There is no negotiating to be done over one's sovereign rights. Once again going too far over any logic can explain but let me be clear about it. Every country has the right to defend its territory, that's article 2 paragraph 4 of the UN charter. The Paris Peace treaty does not concern Turkey, as Turkey did not sign it. Turkey remained neutral in WW2, declaring war against Germany in late February 1945, hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism. Turkey's president has no legal basis to ask for the demilitarization of Greek islands. It is the Greek islands' strong army presence that deter him from any thought of military operations against them. Lastly every island over 3 nautical miles distance over the coast of Anatolia, according to the treaty of Lausanne belongs to Greece.

throw93232 4y ago
..and Turky will start again shipping refugees from its "sovereign" territory. This clawn show is very expensive for both sides. Make a deal!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- planetis 4y ago
  In my opinion, it will stay as such, no side can afford the loss of income from tourism. It is an attempt to turn a worsening situation into an opportunity. Erdogan a defunct leader, might face jail time in case he looses the elections, thus he will do everything he can to cling to power. The unknown is how desperate he is and how far he's willing to go.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  It's shameful that refugees are treated like this by both parties. Soon climate crisis will produce anywhere between 100 million to a billion refugees. Will countries that polluted most take the most?
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> "hence the title of "the evasive neutral", showing it's opportunism." Imagine you are in charge of a struggling nation, somewhat behind technologically, close to Germany and Italy, during the most destructive war in history. In that situation, would you be eager to declare war on the axis powers, and condemn your people to suffering? Even US wasn't keen to get involved untill war came to them - and they had technological parity and protection of the oceans.. You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers. They had fresh memory of atrocities commited by colonial powers which, to them, were not that different from Nazis's ones. To them, Europe only cared about europe - when empire of Japan was doing genocide in China, noone cared. The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners.
- watwut 4y ago
  China itself is colonial power - to these days. > You also have to realise that To non-europeans, for example folks in China, Nazi germany didn't look like 'absolute evil', it looked like a yet another war between colonial powers. China land was literally occupied by Japanies who fought on the German side and joined the allies. China fought in that war and lost quite a lot of people in that war. Ad Turkey: It is one thing to stay aside of genocide far away, it is another thing to demand credit for fighting genocide when it is clear who won. > The point is not to agree or disagree with this worldview, but you have to realise that world events don't look the same from dofferent corners. Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > Those other corners don't get to lie about places away from them or history while ranking up own aggression. This is pot / kettle black. It's not like none of this happens over here. If you open a typical British or US history textbook, it omits or glances over most of the atrocious and dark parts of it's history. As a result most population is unaware of their scale, or sometimes unaware of them at all. That's how you get false narratives in politics, usually nationalist ones. In my experience a typical brexit supporting person has never heard of half the stuff that was going on in the colonies.

jomjomv 4y ago

Afaik "militarization" here refers to permanent Naval bases and such in which case, no, Turkey doesn't have a point at all.

stavros 4y ago
This is the Lausanne treaty (which Turkey is a signatory of, and which stipulates that Greece shouldn't build naval bases on islands, which it hasn't). There's also a treaty between Greece and Italy, which stipulates that there will be no army on some islands, the violation of which Italy apparently has no problem with. I don't understand by what right an unrelated third party complains about it, it seems to me about as relevant as Greece complaining about a treaty between Colombia and Brazil.

planetis 4y ago

Turkish EFES 2022 military exercise concluded just a day ago and it's scenario was landing on an enemy island. The pesident demanded that Greece demilitarize its islands in the eastern Aegean, otherwise face disaster. If that's not a clear military threat then what could it be? Source: https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1186488/erdogan-issues-threat-of-military-force/ https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1186488/erdogan-issues-thr...

mrunseen 4y ago
Aegean sea has seen a lot of military exercises with both Greece and Turkey, I remember the Medusa-10 exercise with Greece, France, Egypt and UAE (and yeah, these are the sides which clash against Turkey-backed official government in Libya) NATO Allied Land Command (in Izmir) tweeted the exercise with hashtags: #WEARENATO and #StrongerTogether. I would normally say such a weird timeline we live in but it has been like this for decades.
- jomjomv 4y ago
  Yes, military exercises happen all the time but the scenarios of the exercises are not always the same and they are not irrelevant.

stavros 4y ago

You mean the treaty between Greece and Italy? I don't understand why Turkey has a right to complain about a treaty between two unrelated countries. If Italy wants to complain about Greece violating the treaty, by all means, but why should Turkey, as a non-signatory?